Doing Something is Better Than Doing Nothing with Dr. Cheryl Chapman

|| Doing Something is Better Than Doing Nothing with Dr. Cheryl Chapman || 

[00:00:00] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: Hello and welcome to the Crystal Podcast on I Code Media. Today I’m gonna have a great conversation with my good friend Dr. Cheryl Chapman. She’s been on the podcast before. Uh, today we’re gonna talk about peak, uh, peak, and we’re mainly gonna talk about eyelid hygiene. So please enjoy our conversation.

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[00:03:04] So Cheryl, thanks for doing this again. Yes, it’s very exciting. The, um, the last time we talked about, I don’t know that we’ve ever actually talked about peak on the podcast and sort of the goal of, um, you know, eyelid cleansing earlier on, but, you know, talk about the, the, um, The genesis of Peak, it goes back probably four, five years 

[00:03:28] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: now.

[00:03:29] Yeah. So I think it was 2019. This was pre pandemic. And I remember I sent you a text that had a picture of a patient pre and post, um, bluff XX treatment. And I think, uh, the caption of my text was probably something along, along the lines of, Ooh, check this out. Yeah. And, um, and, and from that, We kind of started a conversation, I think you said, well, how much are you charging for that?

[00:03:55] And we kind of started a conversation of like, wow, it’s really expensive for people to try and take care of their eyelids and wow, it’s really gross that people get to that point before we’re doing these therapies. And why, why does it get to that point? Why are we not better about taking care of our eyelids more preventatively?

[00:04:17] Um, and you, I think, made a comment. We could do this. Like we could do, we could, we could fix this problem. And then I think my reply back to you was, well, I know a guy, um, [00:04:30] because, uh, my husband Tom Chapman is, um, mba, JD like business guy, uh, has worked with startups for a long time. Worked in the entrepreneurial world for a long time.

[00:04:42] And, um, I was like, okay, well let’s. Have a conversation with Tom. So, um, Chris and I had gone to, um, the office for Chapman and Company and we talked about, um, what is the problem? And the problem really boils down to. Um, people don’t have proper eyelid hygiene. It’s not something that is ingrained in us the same way that brushing our teeth and dental hygiene is ingrained with us.

[00:05:08] And, and there wasn’t really at that time a product on the market that was geared towards being like a toothbrush for the eye, something that people would use at home on a regular basis. Um, so that’s kind of, That’s kind of where it all started. We wanted to create, uh, an at-home device and, um, have something that people could use to regularly clean their eyelids, um, which is where the peak waver was born.

[00:05:30] It’s a at-home, um, device that has a sponge and it it, and it vibrates and it’s used in conjunction with a really good tea tree, oil based cleanser that we also. Developed with the aid of a biochemist on staff, um, to just really help not only Deb debris, the biofilm off of the lid margin, but also to help pull the sponges magic because it helps pull the makeup and the debris off the eyelid.

[00:05:54] Um, and so it was really, it’s been a fun journey. It took a lot longer to develop the device than we [00:06:00] thought it would with some of the slowdowns with, um, the pandemic and availability of microchips and things like that. Um, and so many iterations. Um, I know you could probably, 

[00:06:09] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: no, I think what’s, I think, you know, if we take a step back, you know, one of the things that I recall was, you know, you said, well, we talked about the cost and, and part of the biggest challenge I think with, uh, the cost of an in-office procedure is that by the time that it gets to the level of seeing the optometric physician, Then those patients have to have pretty significant symptoms in most cases, to cover the cost of what we had at the time available and for in-office or office-based treatments.

[00:06:38] And so when you look at the evidence behind where those biofilms start and when they start, we said, look, we can probably get to this as at a very earlier stage. The biggest challenge I thought, which was really kind of. Uh, Tom’s original, uh, thought in the, in bringing it to this is you. And I just thought, well man, we, we just need a better, more cost effective solution to do, to administer an in-office treatment and Yep.

[00:07:04] Uh, and because it’s too expensive, if we want to administer an in-office treatment of people who are asymptomatic like you would by scraping plaque off of teeth, for people who are largely asymptomatic just on a routine basis, there’s no way that you’re gonna to be able to have, uh, a cost. Per plaque cleaning that would cover what, what we were having to pay for widgets in office to clean eyelids.[00:07:30] 

[00:07:30] Now, I, I say all that to say that in order to, to have a patient that wants to pay that cost it, they had to be pretty bad, right? They had to be pretty significant. And they have to have symptoms in the vast majority of cases for the vast majority of optometrists. And the other thing that I thought was, was challenging is that, Because that cost is so high and um, and doctors sort of.

[00:07:54] Uh, have a finite amount of time and they have to be able to offset those costs. Then they’re gonna have to be able to talk to those patients really at length because they weren’t hearing, patients aren’t hearing about, well, brush your eyelids, clean your eyelids. They don’t hear about it any place.

[00:08:08] Whereas like with brushing our teeth, it’s just sort of, We’re built to do it when our, our parents brainwash us to do it. And um, and so that has, it’s just so commonplace that in order for doctors to spend the amount of time it takes to educate patients to do that thing, They’re gonna, they have, their time is too valuable for it at this point.

[00:08:30] They’ve gotta do other things. And so, uh, to get to those patients earlier, you have to have a solution that is simple, that is economical and that they can do at home, so that we can really start or stop that biofilm proliferation earlier on way before it causes symptoms. And that’s where. Our kind of meeting of the minds sort of allowed us to start thinking about this earlier on, right?

[00:08:54] We knew we needed to be more cost effective in the office, but we also knew we gotta be able to get the patients [00:09:00] earlier before they have all these inflammatory problems because of the biofilm reactions and the obstructions of the meibomian glands. And that’s where Tom really came in and sort of set a light bulb off in me as like, yeah, well we can focus, we can do this stuff in office.

[00:09:13] It’s really great. But we can also focus earlier than that as well. So that was, um, a light bulb for me. 

[00:09:22] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: Yeah. You know, one thing that I have found to be really interesting, um, I’ve been out of optometry school now since 2003, so 20 years. And the way I think about dry eye now is so much different than it was 20 years ago because we know a lot more now about meibomian gland dysfunction and, um, just, you know, we’ve got meibography now and, and.

[00:09:45] I am so much more proactive in looking for it now than I was when I first graduated. Like part of my normal exam now includes having the patient look up, pushing on those lower lids, watching the meibomian gland secretions, and always noting in the chart what their secretions look like. Um, and all of our new patients, we do meibography just so that we kind of have a baseline.

[00:10:03] Um, and if somebody, somebody’s starting Accutane, like we’re treating those patients very, very aggressively while they’re on Accutane. Um, so it’s really interesting because I. Um, when you’re doing this and you’re talking to patients, um, a lot of patients who have SP K and who have dry eye. They’re like, I don’t have any symptoms.

[00:10:25] You know? And my staff, that’s one of our intake questions is, do you have any dry eye? And a lot of patients say, no, I [00:10:30] don’t have any dry eye symptoms. Um, but I’ve kind of over time gotten really good at sort of having some key phrases mm-hmm. Or some, some key things that I will tell patients that don’t take a lot of time, um, but help the patient conceptualize.

[00:10:42] And so if I see that their cornea looks very dry and I see lenasia along the lid margin, and I see that they, um, don’t have really great meibomian gland secretions, maybe they’re really turbid or absent. Um, and, and the patient will say, well, I don’t have dry eye symptoms. And I will say to them, you know, um, When a patient has dry eye, a lot of times they don’t feel it.

[00:11:04] Um, I, and I’ll say them, you know how sometimes diabetic patients don’t feel their feet because the nerves get damaged and they’ll say, oh yeah. Like a lot of people know that, right? Yeah. Not everybody, but a lot of people know that. I will say the same thing happens to the eye. Your cornea has damage to the nerves because of the dry eye, and then you don’t feel the dryness.

[00:11:23] But I see the dryness. So we wanna make sure your eyelids are healthier. We’re just gonna start you some eyelid hygienes to get things going. Um, and then, I’m able to hand it off to my staff and let them have that conversation. So, so I have told the patient there’s a problem. We need to address this problem.

[00:11:37] But you’re right, it can be very time consuming if you really try and get into it and you really try and explain it in depth to the patient. Um, so if you take a little bit of time at a staff meeting, train your staff, make sure your staff is comfortable talking about it. You can say a few key things to that patient, and then you can hand the patient off and have the staff do a lot of that patient education for you.

[00:11:57] Um, which I think is key. Yeah, 

[00:11:58] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: I, so I was on a [00:12:00] call with Kristen O’Brien. Have you ever met Kristen? I don’t know Kristen. She’s in North Carolina. She actually had a, she started a cold start practice in, uh, Denver. Denver, Colorado. Now she’s in Denver, North Carolina. I think that’s right. And, um, that’s not confusing.

[00:12:12] No, not at all. And, um, so I was on a call with her, uh, this last week and what she said, I, I loved what she said, because in those CI circumstances when patients don’t feel their cornea, you know, she’ll explain what’s going on and shell, and they’ll say, you know, I feel fine. And then she’ll say, that concerns me even more.

[00:12:30] Or something like that. Where, where that I’m, I’m. Uh, more concerned about that. And the way she said it was, was, um, very, very well taken. You know, it was like, oh yeah, why, why don’t we talk about that stuff better? Where we’re just kind of like, yeah, I know you don’t feel it. So now I’m gonna bang my head against the wall and hope that you do something.

[00:12:48] So I thought that was really, um, really helpful. And then also your point about training the staff. I think that’s, that is key. And with our initial conversations in terms of how efficient we need to be with our time, our initial conversations need to be, just that with those patients is something, it like whatever rolls off your tongue.

[00:13:06] The best, but it’s, you know, for me it, it sounds like I’m seeing some overgrowth of microorganisms along your eyelids and lashes. The number one reason that patients will develop chronic dry eye over time, sometimes I’ll even say chronic inflammatory dry eye over time is because, uh, because they get these micro, these biofilms.

[00:13:26] That’s it. That’s all I say. And so then what we’re gonna do is this. And so what did that take me [00:13:30] 20 seconds to say that? Mm-hmm. And then my, my treatment plan takes me 20 seconds. Um, and then I’m, I’m handing it off and then, um, So I think those are key, but still, the idea is can we get, first of all, can we get all doctors right, all optometrists, to have those very succinct conversations, even if there’s nothing deeper than that.

[00:13:49] Like even if you don’t wanna build a dry eye practice, but you just want to basically prevent this stuff from getting worse over time. It’s, it’s okay, we’re, we’re gonna do this. I want you to do that. I’m gonna see you back. At this other, you know, if you don’t want to drop, build a dry eye practice, fine.

[00:14:04] Just have your patients Actually, I think that if you’re having your patients do these things early on before you see a lot of other signs, at the very first sign of a lenasia, at the very first sign of turbid, uh, which is gonna be in the late teens, early twenties, at the very, your first sign of. Mild anterior blepharitis.

[00:14:21] If you start that, then you’re gonna probably see a lot less severe dry eye. The amount of severe dry eye I see right now. I mean, we see some, but we didn’t, my patients were, we were identifying things. I’ve been practiced 15 years now and really focused on this for at least 10 years. The number of patients that I see that 10 years ago we were talking about this with them that have advanced.

[00:14:42] I don’t see a ton of that where I, I definitely see those patients where they find me, and those are the real more advanced patients. And so anyway, I, I do think that you can kind of halt that stuff early by just simple cleansing and debulking. 

[00:14:57] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: I think it’s interesting, um, too, you kind of [00:15:00] made me think about how.

[00:15:02] Optometrists as we’re, you know, especially if you’ve got somebody new and they’re thinking, what equipment do I need? Mm. Right. Yeah. Oh my gosh. There’s so much more equipment now than there was 20 years ago when I started. And like O c t was just coming out at that point in time. And my biography is new and, and, and, uh, LipiFlow is new and all these other, you know, I p l like all this stuff is expensive, right?

[00:15:24] Yeah. Like Optum apps, all of that. And so, you know, you’ve got these doctors who wanna do something. You can start treating dry eye with these more simple at-home therapies without necessarily having to, you know, be offering I P L and LipiFlow and things like that. Um, and you can get a little bit of a revenue stream from selling some of this stuff in your office.

[00:15:47] And I think that’s one of, um, the beauties of peak because, um, you know, Tom being the business guy, said, Hey, Let’s do a subscription box, and why are all these doctors turning their computer screen around and showing patients what to purchase on Amazon? Yeah, sell this stuff yourself and Peak can, you know, provide those services for the doctors so the doctors don’t have to worry about fulfilling it, but the doctors still get revenue from it and it’s not gonna be like, The hugest stream of revenue, but 

[00:16:14] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: it’s, it’s incremental revenue that, that’s not nothing.

[00:16:17] That’s nice. I mean, I, you know, I look at, at our, um, our office based products, and I always tell people like, the reason that we sell stuff in our office is primarily, I mean, it, the, the sole reason is to know that the patients are getting what we’ve prescribed compliance [00:16:30] and, and they are gonna adhere to what we’ve got.

[00:16:32] Uh, as opposed to kind of searching the shelves. I mean, you’ve. You’ve gone into the pharmacy and you’ve seen, I, I do it all the time. I go just kind of peruse the eye care portion of the pharmacy just to see what’s available, just to see what, what they’re putting like next to like, so that’s the, the primary reason we started doing it on our practice.

[00:16:48] And now I look at our, you know, annually the amount of revenue, like the amount of net revenue that’s generated from that is, it’s significant. I mean, it winds up being significant. And so, um, you know, and, and it’s almost like, um, Uh, you know, my, again, my staff and what we talk about all the time is we price that the same as you can find on Amazon.

[00:17:09] The same pretty much that you can find anywhere in, in any of your big box stores. Cuz I don’t look at it as like a huge thing. I mean, you could certainly price whatever you want to, but my point is I wanna be a convenience to those patients. And most of the time, you know, we’ll say that, oh yeah, of course I’ll just get it here.

[00:17:23] Like, they don’t, it’s not, and, and, and so, um, it’s a convenience. And it’s, uh, I know that the patient is gonna get what I’ve prescribed. I don’t ever feel like we’re selling it. Um, and it is aig, you know, it’s a pretty significant income stream every year that we just don’t even really think about.

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[00:19:49] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: It’s interesting to hear you say, I don’t feel like I’m selling it. Um, I think there’s a lot of optometrists out there who are really averse to selling. I think that, um, you know, by our very nature, we’re here to help people, right? And we don’t wanna feel like a salesman. Um, so I think we need to kind of like do a mind reset for some, um, doctors who feel that way.

[00:20:10] You’re not a salesman. Y you’re making recommendations. Um, and so you know, when you’re recommending certain products for patients and you’re wanting to make sure that they have compliance on those products, you are providing another service by having those products available, available for your patients.

[00:20:27] A lot of times, as I’m, you know, telling patients, we’re gonna have you start on this, this, and this, they’ll say, oh, well, is that over the counter? Um, oh, well, yes it is. Oh, so I can get it anywhere? Well, yes you can. And in fact, we have it here. Oh, you do? Good. Like I have just saved that person. They just 

[00:20:44] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: don’t want to go search through 

[00:20:45] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: all of that.

[00:20:45] No, nobody wants, and, and especially in today’s days, in today’s day and age, people are so used to. Online shopping. They’re so used to not having to go into a store. And so, you know, with Peak, I have a QR code that’s unique to my office and I will just tell the [00:21:00] patient, yep, we’ve got ’em here for you today.

[00:21:02] And, um, we have a QR code. You can scan that and that will get you, um, to the website where you can purchase more of that stuff and have it shipped directly to your home for your convenience. Patients are delighted by that. And if you can delight a patient and make them happy, like why would you feel like that is selling?

[00:21:18] That is not selling, that’s providing a service. Well, well, 

[00:21:20] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: I I often, I had another conversation recently, um, and the same thing, you know, the doctor was concerned about. He was, he, his comment was, I’m worried about the price of, it was an office-based treatment for dry eye. I’m worried about the price for the patient.

[00:21:35] Uh, and May, and, you know, and, and his price was gonna be $750. And, um, and I said, do you worry when a patient buys a $750 pair of glasses? Do you feel like you sold them? And he, and he smiled. He goes, no, I don’t worry at all. It never, it never phases me. But for some reason, you know, as a profession, I. We’re completely happy to sell an annual supply of daily multifocal contact lenses to a patient.

[00:21:57] It actually makes our day. We’re not afraid of doing that. We’re not afraid. Afraid of prescribing that contact lens and then, oh, by the way, they can purchase it from us. Same thing with with glasses, but for some reason services and then other like, Uh, you know, medications that are over the counter, uh, products in our practices, we sort of feel like that’s uncomfortable and I don’t understand that, but it’s absolutely true and, um, and I, I don’t, I can’t say that I don’t battle that in into myself occasionally as well.

[00:22:25] Like, ugh, man. I don’t, I, I wonder that I, I know, you know, we’ve [00:22:30] talked about this. I, I, I really don’t. Um, not recommend stuff because I think a patient can’t afford it. It’s the worst thing I think you can do, and I’ve always been surprised when, when I recommend it to people that I don’t think can afford something and then they’re the first ones that do it.

[00:22:44] Mm-hmm. But I, I, I think my point there is that I, I try not to do that, but I can even feel myself, I, I have to resist that temptation to do it occasionally, even when I’m aware of it. I 

[00:22:56] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: think it takes practice to get comfortable. Not judging patients’, um, ability to, to afford. And, and I think it takes practice to make sure that you do it regularly, that you don’t have preconceived notions on what a patient may or may not want to spend their money on.

[00:23:17] Our job as their provider, they have hired us to give them our best recommendations based on what we think is best for them. And it is absolutely up to that patient to decide on whether or not they wanna spend that money. Yeah. Um, and so I just tell myself that all the time. Um, and I would say too, one thing that has made it a lot easier for me, I.

[00:23:35] To not be afraid of asking patients to spend money on their dry eye therapies is I am a dry eye sufferer myself, and I know how uncomfortable my dry eyes can be when I’m not properly taking care of them, and I wish that I had known. Hmm. 20 years ago, what I know now, so I could have prevented the gland loss that I’ve had Yeah.

[00:23:56] Over the years. Yeah. Um, and I look at it that way, [00:24:00] and there are so many patients that I can help because I, I know now what I know and I can help them from getting to the point that I’m at. And so never would I wanna withhold a treatment from a patient because what I think they can or cannot afford, or what I think they would or would not be willing to spend.

[00:24:15] That’s up to the patient to make that final decision. It’s my job to let them know what their options are. 

[00:24:19] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: Yeah. Yeah. I think, and I think of all of, all of the people that I know really well, I think you do a very good job of that. You know, and I, and I think, I always look to, to people that I kind of admire in how they do.

[00:24:31] And you’re one of those people I think, in a genuine way. I want to help you. I’m not gonna let my preconceived notions about you get in the way of how best I can help you. I think that’s, that’s where you come from and that really helps me think about like, yeah, the other really good doctors that I know, they don’t let themselves get in the way of good patient care.

[00:24:49] They are not a barrier to good patient care and good patient outcomes. You know, the other thing that you brought up that I thought was, was interesting, you kind of went down this path a little bit, but, but, um, You know, peak has always been aware of this idea that we don’t want to build, uh, build the brand on the backs of an independent practitioner or I the eyecare profession in general, just to snatch it away from online.

[00:25:14] And so you made the comment that, you know, uh, there’s subscription. So you say, well, we sell it in office, and then the patient can subscribe, uh, if they want to have a subscription or they can purchase it through the. Through Peak’s website and they can use that QR code to access it. But that [00:25:30] QR code links your practice to that patient in perpetuity.

[00:25:33] So all of the cosmetic products that peak manufacturers, all of the other eyelid, uh, cleansing products that peak manufacturers, you get some of that revenue every single time. And you don’t even have to cover the carry that in your practice. Right. And the other thing is that if patients don’t want to do that, they can come right back to.

[00:25:52] Dr. Chapman’s practice to purchase it physically in your practice. So I think that was, that was, um, something that I think Tom, uh, really worked hard on doing as well because of, uh, those same reasons is we were looking to partner with, um, with practitioners. So for the overall benefit of those patients so they can get good, good stuff to keep their eyelids 

[00:26:13] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: clean.

[00:26:14] Yeah, it’s really interesting. Um, a lot of the offices and doctors that we’ve talked to have talked about how they’ve. Had the idea of, or they’ve tried to institute some sort of a subscription box within their own practice and they found that it was just too cumbersome. It was really, it’s just a really hard thing to do by yourself.

[00:26:34] Um, and so it. We’ve had offices just absolutely love the subscription boxes. Um, you know, it’s really great. You can have it logoed as you know. You have yours logoed. I have mine logoed, and so it looks like it’s coming from that office. It doesn’t look like it’s coming from a third party. Um, but you also don’t need.

[00:26:52] Your staff to take time on it. Oh, and by the way, when they’re purchasing it through Peak, you don’t have the credit card [00:27:00] processing fees for the payments that are collected on those product. Uh, which is really nice. 

[00:27:04] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: And you don’t have to have the inventory. You don’t have to. I mean, we do have inventory, but, but we don’t have to keep all of that other stuff 

[00:27:09] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: stocked.

[00:27:10] Yeah. And you don’t know if you have a drop that, um, you’ve had for a while, then you have to worry about expiration dates, which, I mean, we’ve had that happen where. Some of those drops have expired or you kind of change your prescribing preferences. Like, I used to like this drop, but now I’m using more of 

[00:27:23] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: this drop.

[00:27:24] Yeah, that’s a really interesting point. Yeah, I didn’t even think about that, but I mean, that’s a really good one where, you know, you go to a meeting, you’re like, oh, I tried this. I really love it. I want this in my box now. As opposed to, yeah, like now I gotta whole, I gotta get rid of all the old stuff. And bring on this new stuff.

[00:27:38] Yeah. You don’t have to 

[00:27:38] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: worry about selling through those 20 bottles of whatever else before you start using the new stuff. Um, it’s, I’ve never been a big fan of keeping a lot of inventory around. I know like, like contact lenses. You go to these shows and they always want you to buy a bank and, and then.

[00:27:53] If you ever fall for it, then you end up with like however many boxes of all these contacts, and first of all, where do you store ’em? And then you have to remember to dispense those rather than ordering them. It’s like, oh, like, no, it’s, it’s, and then it takes up space and your office is more cluttered.

[00:28:06] And so, no, it’s really nice to have, not have to worry about inventory issues. You don’t have to worry about fulfillment issues. You don’t have to worry about staff time, like it’s just, It’s, it’s a pretty slick, nice thing. Yeah. 

[00:28:18] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: Yeah. I think, um, so I think the, the overarching goal is, you know, it’s obviously we’ve, we’ve talked about what’s good for the patient and winds up being good for the practice, but really, um, you know, in your [00:28:30] mind, uh, when you talk about.

[00:28:33] About earlier intervention with patients. I mean, I, I am almost to the point. I’m not there yet. I should be. I should be, but this is kind of the conservative nature of the profession. It’s like, why do I have to wait until I, I mean, the reality is, is I know that patients are gonna get. Biofilms, I know it, it’s gonna happen no matter, no matter what I need to see.

[00:28:52] Right? And so why am I not just talking about this to every single patient? What, even before I see problems like all of our kids. You’ve got a lot of kids in Orthokeratology. Um, you do a lot of myopia management, but like in general, Patient walks in the door. I shouldn’t, I shouldn’t have to see a thing. I know it’s eventually gonna be a problem in, uh, a significant portion.

[00:29:14] I mean, you look at, at the studies and, and it could be anywhere, and again, this, this is related to dry eye, but anywhere between 35 and 50% of the population over the age of of 50 is gonna have. Dry eye, but then you can take it into, depending on the study, again, when you look at meibomian gland dysfunction, you’re talking about 70% of the population.

[00:29:35] So if that started someplace before, you know that, okay. 70% of the population over the age of 50 and probably higher as you get older. Are gonna have significant problems from dry eye and or meibomian gland dysfunction. And most of those are gonna have some component of biofilm problems. So, and, and it’s gonna start well in advance of when they have, when they have symptomatic problems.

[00:29:54] So why am I not just talking to about everybody and, and, and, and even patients, like patients will know, [00:30:00] you know, we, this is one of the things we learned from some of the clinical studies that we did. Early on was you’d talk to, to women in particular, and you’d say, well, when did you get your makeup off last?

[00:30:10] And I don’t talk about this to, to my patients. I don’t know if you do now, but it’s not something that I’m spending a lot of time on. And, and they’ll say, oh yeah, I, I never get my makeup off. Or, or they’ll be like, yeah, I wore it and I I did a good job. When did you wear it Last? Oh, last week. And you see, you know, and you see debris along their eyelashes.

[00:30:27] So like, most patients know they’re not doing a good job. And they know that they need to do a better job. They just, every single product they has, they have says, don’t use around their eyes. Don’t use around your eyes. Don’t use in your eyes. And so it scares ’em. So I don’t know that, that to me is, um, is illuminating.

[00:30:45] Like, what’s it gonna take where we just, like every single person that walks in the door, it’s like my staff like are like, you go to the dentist, how often are you brushing your teeth? How often are you flossing? Like the doctor’s not asking that, you know? Yeah. 

[00:30:59] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: Yeah, I mean, have you ever heard a dentist pick and choose who he recommends they brush their teeth?

[00:31:03] No. Like the dentist wants everybody brushing their teeth. All eye doctors should want everybody cleaning their eyelid margins, um, to help reduce problems with dry eye as we age. Just like brushing your teeth helps reduce problems with plaque and gingivitis, like it’s just something that should be, um, pervasive.

[00:31:21] I. Um, within our population. So, uh, I think that, I think we’ll get there. Yeah. Um, I think that people are a lot more in [00:31:30] tune with preventative care than they’ve ever been before. Um, and I think, you know, if you just put up some simple displays in your office, you can peak a lot of interest without even a whole lot of conversations having to happen.

[00:31:43] Um, what I have found in my practice is that a lot of. Adults who I have prescribed the therapies for, like let’s say I send some of the foaming cleanser home with a gal, and then pretty soon. Well, they need more cuz her husband’s using it too. And oh, her teenage daughters have taken it and now she needs more because, you know, everyone in the house starts using it.

[00:32:04] Um, it, it’s really interesting. Or I’ve had, um, just recently I had had a husband come in and. I, you know, said you’ve got this going on. And he said, oh, like my wife. Yeah. Well, she’s feeling a lot better. Yeah. Yeah. I want that. 

[00:32:18] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: And they feel better sometimes. They didn’t even know, they didn’t feel good. Yeah.

[00:32:21] Right. Yeah. It’s interesting. Mean, relaxed. Yeah. It’s interesting. So, so Cheryl, tell uh, tell the audience where they can find, um, where they can find peak. And you know, I think the reality is, is we want you to use peak. Like we think it’s very good, but we want you to do something. I think that’s the most important thing is that we’re doing something, uh, as opposed to nothing and at least starting a conversation with something.

[00:32:43] So if people wanna check out Peak, where can they go? 

[00:32:46] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: Peak pro.com. 

[00:32:47] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: All right, Dr. Cheryl Chapman, thanks for doing it. 

[00:32:50] Dr. Cheryl Chapman: Thank you for having me. It’s been a pleasure. Awesome. 

[00:32:52] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: Appreciate it.[00:33:00] 

Doing Something is Better Than Doing Nothing Doing Something is Better Than Doing Nothing Doing Something is Better Than Doing Nothing Doing Something is Better Than Doing Nothing Doing Something is Better Than Doing Nothing Doing Something is Better Than Doing Nothing Doing Something is Better Than Doing Nothing Doing Something is Better Than Doing Nothing