Independent Insights with Dr. Aaron Werner

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[00:00:00] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: Hello and welcome Crystal Podcast on I Code Media. Today I had a great conversation with my good friend Dr. Aaron Warner. Aaron, uh, has his own podcast that I want you to check out. We had a really great conversation about the future of the profession, about the troubling troubles and trials within the profession, but, but the opportunity that we have as well.

[00:00:28] So, as always, please enjoy our conversation. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast, write a review, share it with your friends, and support those who support us.

[00:00:40] The most common questions I get include, What ophthalmological codes or evaluation and management codes should I use? What ICD 10 codes do I need to bill with this C P T code? What C P T codes can be billed together and what can’t? And my favorite, how do I manage a patient who has diabetes, who comes in for a quote unquote routine eye exam?

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[00:02:40] What? You know, I was thinking about Aaron, kind of the, the future of the profession. That’s one of the things I was thinking about, um, on my way back from Washington, DC you know, there’s been a lot of. Things that have occurred within the profession over the last few weeks we’ve seen, I don’t know if you saw this, but Washington now has [00:03:00] passed their advanced scope of practice bill, which includes lasers.

[00:03:03] I haven’t dug into the bill specifically to see exactly what got passed, but on the one end of the spectrum, we’ve got this amazing, you know, expansion and scope, which is helps patients in Washington. On the other end of the spectrum, actually, completely opposed in terms of, of the scope of the, the country.

[00:03:21] You’ve got medicine working their tail off to get Governor DeSantis to sign the bill so that doctors of optometry can’t call themselves physicians. So what are we to make of all of this? Uh, 

[00:03:37] Dr. Aaron Werner: I think that there’s, uh, I think this is a, a, a never ending. Saga. And, uh, I remember dad telling me about how Grandpa, uh, was really proud of the fact that optometrist was the only profession that didn’t need drops for medicine to take care of patients.

[00:03:55] We could look in your eye and see what we needed to see without it. Um, and then, you know, dad graduated with, with diagnostics, had to go back and get therapeutics. Uh, I was the first class in California to graduate with glaucoma privileges in the state without having to go and, and do time with, uh, with an ophthalmologist.

[00:04:14] Um, so I think within all the battles we’re, we’re constantly progressing forward. And interestingly enough, I was having, uh, Dinner with my best friend and his dad. His dad was a state senator in California and had, had termed out and he said the entire time in the [00:04:30] state of California, his time in the Senate, optometry versus ophthalmology was the biggest battle that he had to deal with.

[00:04:36] And he said, I still don’t understand what you guys were fighting about, but I can’t stand either one of you, which, uh, which which said a lot to me. He said, look, just take care of people. I don’t get it. Why is it so hard? Um, And I, I, we chatted through a little bit of the, of the why, but I think that it’s, it’s a constant, um, back and forth and whenever, uh, there’s dollars involved and, and you know, the need to, uh, the worry rather about having access to patients, that’s always going to be a, uh, uh, a fear.

[00:05:06] Um, but I think that, you know, taking three steps back and looking at, at history, we are moving forward pretty good. And there, there are some places where it feels like the battle. Is is tough and, and we might lose a battle here or there. California had our expansion scope vetoed by our governor. Um, but when you look at the, at nationally what’s happening, we’re, we’re getting some pretty cool things that have happened in year, in my lifetime and certainly in our, in our dad’s lifetime, going from just having diagnostics to now seeing, you know, quite a few states 

[00:05:36] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: with laser.

[00:05:37] Yeah, I mean it’s, it’s, it’s the same thing I reflect on is in 20, in 1998, Nebraska got the authority for optometrists to treat glaucoma. I couldn’t imagine practicing without that authority. And even just you and I, you know, we graduated 2008, so I was, I graduated 10 years after we were granted the authority.

[00:05:57] I started optometry school six years [00:06:00] after. And so just like you, you know, my dad, uh, had basically six years of. Of not having to have an ophthalmologist look over his shoulder for patients who had glaucoma. And we came outta school with, you know, all the ability I was doing SLTs in school. You know, we were, we were taking care of all of those patient needs from a glaucoma standpoint in school during our training.

[00:06:20] So the, even in just that one generation for you, you know, everybody before you had to get handheld and ma co-manage a certain number of cases and get signed off before they could do it independently. And you’ve, you’ve seen that in your state where you never, you’re the first generation that didn’t have to do that.

[00:06:39] And so, I agree with you. I think there’s all these other, uh, opportunities moving forward. And the reality is, and I’ve said this before, is the reality is, is ophthalmology cannot handle all the patients that they need to see. The the point I’m trying to make here, Aaron, is that we have, you know, If I’m ophthalmology, I’m going to try to hammer those other bills just like they’ve got in Florida all day long because it, it takes our attention from trying to help patients and provide better care, uh, and more access to care then, uh, instead of having to battle these other bills back.

[00:07:13] So, um, yeah, you’re right. It’s a constant battle. I, I, I think it really comes down to like identity for the profession. I think there’s a huge number, and I think this is where we. Where we kind of have to make sure that we, um, as a [00:07:30] profession, we continue to move forward because it can’t just be that we’re just more accessible than ophthalmology.

[00:07:36] I mean, the reality is, is that we are, and that’s a really good argument that we can make. But if we don’t believe that what we, when we do the things we’re trained to do, we are in fact better. Then an ophthalmologist doing those same things, then we’re just sort of a second tier provider and, and I just don’t believe that’s true.

[00:07:56] I think, I think optometry has to know that when we’re in the exam room with a patient who has a problem, we are the best place for that patient. We’re not just sort of an ancillary service because that patient couldn’t have gotten in someplace else. 

[00:08:13] Dr. Aaron Werner: Oh, absolutely. The, uh, it’s funny you bring up, uh, I, your identity.

[00:08:19] Uh, I think we have a little bit of an identity crisis, not necessarily as an opt as, as a optometry, as a profession, but I think the individual optometrist and, and not all of them, But I’ve seen on enough groups and blogs and, and chats that I’m over it. You know, I’ve been outta school for five years.

[00:08:37] Mm-hmm. I’m kind of getting tired. I’m over it. Um, in school, I don’t know about you, but, but we came away with a feeling that we had to be experts in everything from low vision division therapy to you name it. We had to, to to know it and be able to provide it. We had to be all things to all people. And what school didn’t teach me, nor do I think it’s their, their job to, but finding my, [00:09:00] my individual purpose.

[00:09:01] I mean, my, my partner Brittany, she’s dry eye, like her, her purpose is dry eye. And if it’s not in that, she can touch it and she can help with it. But that, that’s not what brings her the joy. Um, and we’ve expanded it to, to clinical research. Most of that happens to be in, in the dry eye space. Um, but that’s what, what brings her joy.

[00:09:18] That’s her purpose. If there’s a low vision patient, there’s a binocular vision patient. We don’t really touch it, we refer out because we’ve realized that’s not our, our joy. Um, I enjoy seeing others succeed, so I’d I’d much rather, you know, see somebody else on the podium that, that, you know, nobody knew about, but they’re that hidden talent.

[00:09:37] That’s, that’s where I’ve realized I, I get a lot of my satisfaction, my personal satisfaction. And I think if we don’t, Figure out what our own individual, uh, purposes are and drives are. Then it, it does feel like we’re just kind of coming along and everybody’s attacking us from all different sides. And, uh, for some that may be, you know, driving political initiatives, um, and getting others to support ’em.

[00:09:59] But some may be, you know, patient care driving a business, some may be, you know, figuring out how to, uh, how to, to, to. You know, lead be on the front edge of, of clinical research or, um, you know, investigation type stuff. I think that’s where I see a lot of, of people that don’t really know their way or feel like that the world’s coming down on ’em is because they haven’t found their, their North Star.

[00:10:24] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: I think, um, yeah, I, I, I, I agree with that. I, I am just trying to wrap my [00:10:30] mind around, um, How mu how many and why we do get this kind of, um, burnout in the profession. You know, is it, is it, uh, debt? I mean, I, I think that most people coming to optometry, well, maybe I, maybe I’m wrong, but they come, they come with pretty clear eyes.

[00:10:50] They, they kind of have an idea of what they want to do. Um, they chose it for a specific reason. They want to help people. Um, why did we give that burnout? What, when you talk to, to docs maybe. And, and the thing is, is I think I’m kind of insulated. I don’t know about you, but you know, I, the mo the people that I interact with are people that love the profession, that really want to kind of go after the profession, but, um, on a regular basis.

[00:11:16] But then if I’m am in like a large crowd or, um, Where I don’t know people quite as much. Sometimes I see that, I see this burnout that occurs. I, I, I just, I’m trying to wrap my mind around why, why it’s the case. Did they just not come with open eyes? Did something change that they weren’t expecting to change?

[00:11:35] What do you think? I’m probably gonna 

[00:11:38] Dr. Aaron Werner: oversimplify what I, what I, but I’m trying to say, but it. To me, the, there’s rules to the game that we play. If you’re playing baseball, if you’re playing football or rugby, there’s rules to the game and the rules are constantly being updated. We’ve got a pitch count rule this year in, in baseball that’s newer.

[00:11:55] If you don’t know the rules of the game, the game plays you and it [00:12:00] feels like that you don’t know what’s happening. Um, I don’t like the term victim, and I don’t, I don’t think our colleagues think of ourselves as victims, but I do think that when you don’t know the rules of the game, you feel like you’re on the receiving end.

[00:12:12] And, um, if you learn the rules of the game, you still may not like the rules, but you can make the adjustments necessary to do so. Uh, Manny Machado in, in San Diego is a perfect example. The dude starts every, every ad bat with a strike cuz he just won’t get in the, in the batter’s box. Right? Which ultimately hurts the team.

[00:12:30] The um, and, and optometry’s complicated. We’ve got. Not just, uh, managed vision care that we’re managing. We don’t have medical, just medical that we’re, we’re, we’re managing. We also have, you know, private pay and, and non-covered services we’re engaging with. So at, at any given interaction, you may have three.

[00:12:49] Different payers at play that’s complex. We we’re lucky enough to have a retail aspect, but that’s also a challenge to have a retail aspect of the, the practice. And I think that with all these different, um, aspects of the, the practice, there’s a lot of rules to learn. And those that are part of a larger community, you don’t have to take it upon yourself to, to, to learn the rules, but you have to have resources and those that are part of a larger community, engage with that larger community, feel more empowered because they know where to go.

[00:13:20] They know how to, to where to seek help. Were to seek trusted colleagues without being judged. I think the ones that are by themselves. And, um, and came outta school with the [00:13:30] idea that, you know, I can do this, or came out of being an associate in a practice for a long time, and then, and, you know, coming in on their own saying, oh, I can do this.

[00:13:37] I’ve, I’ve been in that space. If you never, never learned the rules, it, it’s, it’s tough to, to, uh, to feel like you’re in control. 

[00:13:46] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: You know, I was in. Yeah, I, I think that’s true. I think the, um, it’s this, this mentality that you are against other people and, and obviously both of us are our vision source doctors.

[00:13:57] Uh, both of us believe in the, in the ideas behind Vision Source. We could talk about that as well, but I think kind of trusting other people who have been there before you. I think when I think about what has allowed me to excel. To the degree that I have is I’ve got really good people around me, people that I’ve trusted and relied on their opinions, people that I’ve trusted and relied on their processes.

[00:14:20] I, I’ve never felt like I’m alone in the, in, in, that I’ve never felt like I’ve gotta have. Uh, that I don’t understand the rules or if I can’t understand the rules, that I can’t rely on somebody else to help me out. Understanding those rules as you, as you so describe, it’s also interesting when you really try to put your finger on the pulse of the way an optometrist think.

[00:14:41] Optometrists do think a specific way, and it, it’s very interesting. I was in, last night, I was in Washington, DC. And we had a, um, peak actually sponsored a meeting for, uh, uh, Courtney Fills group out in, um, in Northern Virginia. [00:15:00] And, uh, and so we did a, we did a, we did a talk on peak, but we also did a, a discussion related to total patient care and building a pillar within the practice.

[00:15:09] And it’s always amazing no matter where I go. Uh, when you have a group of doctors that align together, like Vision Source, that kind of see things through that, that similar light, I can make broad statements like optometrists generally do this, and you can see almost every head nod because we’re sort of inclined to, you know, in this whole complexity of like, okay, medical managed vision care, routine, cash pay, patients that don’t have any insurance.

[00:15:40] We’re sort of, our heartstrings are kind of tugged to try to help patients. And I always say this and uh, and, and as an optometrist, we will, we will work against our own interests because we want patients to be happy. I don’t know that that exists in every other, uh, healthcare profession or he, or profession in general, but it is just our nature.

[00:16:03] But when I’m in a room like that, I can say something like, look who does this? And everybody does it. Everybody does the exact same thing. And, and I don’t know that because I know, uh, them in particular, I know that because then I’m a, I’m an optometrist, but I can share that with them and they’re willing to share it with me, and then we can get to the underlying problem so that we can fix that problem so that we can still care about patients, but we don’t have to completely ignore all the other stuff.

[00:16:28] Um, but when you [00:16:30] have that community that you’re talking about, when you have that community that you describe, that you rely on, that you trust, um, Then it’s a lot easier to kind of break down those barriers and just call it what it is. Like, look, I want to give my services away because I’m an optometrist.

[00:16:45] I only wanna see a patient one time a year because I’m an optometrist. But anyway, Aaron, I think that’s the, that’s the biggest problem is uh, or the biggest opportunity. If you have all these other people that align with you and understand what you’re doing, then you can kind of get past all of the mistrust and you can get to the heart of the problem and try to fix those problems.

[00:17:05] Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:06] Dr. Aaron Werner: I, I agree. I also think that there needs to be a, uh, we need to be in a, in an, in an environment where it’s okay to be vulnerable and say, I need help. Um, and what I’ve found in, in, in all the vision source meetings I go to, cause that’s where I go most of them, most, most of my time, is that the person saying, I need help with problem a.

[00:17:28] It usually ends up being one of the people that have a, a solution when somebody else says, I’ve got a problem, you know, problem B. And so it’s this constant just exchange of, of knowledge and ideas and perspective. So you’re never the person that’s, that’s always needing help. Sometimes you need help, but a lot of the times you’re, you’re helping provide solutions to somebody else’s problem.

[00:17:50] And, uh, and outside of, of the groups that have a, a good cohesion, when it’s just a, a chicken dinner for whatever company, you don’t see that vulnerability. [00:18:00] It’s, it’s rare when you see somebody willing to make a risk or say, Hey, I’m having a challenge here. Who’s got an idea? 

[00:18:08] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: It’s, it is kind of this standoffish, uh, nature and, and that’s weird because our profession wasn’t really built on that.

[00:18:15] If you think back to when your dad, uh, was passing laws and, and the guys before him, at least in Nebraska, you know, there was this, you had to, you had to really collectively work together. And that’s what I think built, built Vision source and the idea within Vision Source. But um, but you had to work together in order to advance things politically.

[00:18:37] You couldn’t view each other as competitors. Are we viewing each other as competitors more now than we used to?

[00:18:49] I don’t think 

[00:18:49] Dr. Aaron Werner: so. I think it’s, um, I think it depends on the room you’re in. I think within, uh, uh, a vision source like community, you know, we have have people that have offices across the street. Heck in Hawaii, we’ve got people that have, there’s three different offices in the same office building that are all Vision Source, and you could easily argue that they would be competitors.

[00:19:09] Yet they, they work together in their colleagues. Um, I think it’s the, the competition doesn’t come from proximity. Competition comes from whether we’re willing to, to work together and leverage each other’s strengths or if, uh, we’re, we are afraid to show our vulnerabilities to, 

[00:19:29] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: to colleagues. [00:19:30] What do you think our profession is gonna look like?

[00:19:34] I, I try to kind of vision cast with where things are gonna be. I, I don’t think I can look very far past 10 years, um, you know, in 50 years. I have no idea. Honestly, I don’t know what healthcare’s gonna look like in the United States and what Optometry’s gonna look like. I, I wish I could go that far out.

[00:19:52] 10 years. Um, might be hard. To see, uh, I think in 10 years for sure. If I were gonna predict 10 years, I would think that we certainly have to do more of what we’re talking about. I mean, when, when you look at how long it takes to, to train an ophthalmologist, when you look at. Uh, the fact that most ophthalmologists don’t want to do general ophthalmology, they want to do subspecialty training.

[00:20:19] Uh, it means that we’re gonna have to step up for that medical care and, and the, the healthcare system in general is gonna have to rely more on optometrists than it currently does, and optometrists are gonna have to, uh, step up to the plate in a lot of ways to deliver that care. But I can’t really go much past 10 years.

[00:20:37] What are your thoughts about the next 10 years?

[00:20:42] Well, if I look at, 

[00:20:43] Dr. Aaron Werner: uh, just the kind of phone I was using 10 years ago and what I do with my phone today, it’s, it’s not even comparable. Um, I think that we’re going to continue being driven by technology and, uh, with that comes delegation and. [00:21:00] We take two steps forward and our team takes two steps forward with us.

[00:21:05] So I agree with you. I think that, uh, our ophthalmologists that we work with in San Diego are all sub-specialists. They, they, I, I joking with them, but I’m half serious that they don’t get a referral unless the patient’s ready to be, you know, shot, lasered, cut, or stabbed. Um, because that’s what they do.

[00:21:22] Yeah. And then when they’re done, it comes right back to me and, um, and we have a fantastic relationship because of it. If anything, they’ve worked with us to, to train, uh, the San Diego community that the opt optometry community that no, you need to keep this in your office because this is your responsibility, not mine.

[00:21:40] And I think we’re gonna see a lot more of that. And the, the, the surgeons that have that mentality and build those relationships are gonna be the ones that thrive and continue to do better. They’re gonna be the ones that end up react, engaging with, with those of us that, uh, are more whole, you know, whole optometry minded, uh, meaning medical and, and refraction and, and retail.

[00:22:02] Um, so I think we’re just gonna see technology drive us into the ability to take care of more patients at a more efficient pace. 

[00:22:13] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: Do you think, what do you think about our, think our teams are critically important? Yeah, I agree. I think we’re gonna have to continue to train our teams really well and hire good people and really work in the community to, to bring out more people that want to be involved in our practices.

[00:22:28] I think we’re gonna have to look at [00:22:30] other, you know, other. Places that we haven’t looked before. I mean, you know, we’ve, we’ve never really looked towards nursing or CNAs as ways that we can fill slots, but we may have to, we may have to look at more training programs for, uh, technicians and opticians and, um, so I think we’re gonna have to bring out those people who do want to help.

[00:22:51] Patience. I think the other thing that’s really interesting, Aaron, and I think you and I are gonna be on a call later with, um, with some virtual assistant, uh, people, but yeah, the, um, the, the real clear definition and as think as time goes on, it’s hard for our teams. It’s hard for my team to fully understand their value physically with patients.

[00:23:15] I think there are some things that in the future, My value won’t be there physically with patients. But I do think even with things like chat, G P T, I’m not sure if you saw the study about patient preferences for responses from chat G P T. Mm-hmm. Compared to physicians and physician grading those responses.

[00:23:33] There was a study that showed that. Um, the physicians grading the responses were graded. The chat, g p t more favorable to patient questions than having a physician response. So other physicians evaluating those responses, uh, said that the, the responses by chat G P T were better than the physician responses.

[00:23:53] I don’t think that completely eliminates human beings because I do think people are gonna want to just physically be [00:24:00] with somebody. I think. They’re gonna want to still have the understanding of what’s going back and forth. They’re gonna want to have the care that can be provided from a human. But I do think that, um, we really need to be aware of the types of things that, that artificial intelligence can, artificial intelligence can help us augment when that technology is ready.

[00:24:21] And then also really focus on in our teams, what can our team, what do we need to our teams to do physically and what the value of that is for the practice and what can be done remotely or by ai and what the value to that is to the practice. And I, I think that’s gonna be a real game changer for those of us that can do it well.

[00:24:43] We’ll have a huge advantage in our. In managing our teams compared to those of us who don’t do it well.

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[00:27:07] Dr. Aaron Werner: I what you’re talking about is, is emotional intelligence and AI and, um, I think that’s the, the art of providing healthcare. I think technology and, and ai, um, is gonna help us a a lot on the diagnosis and even on the recommended treatment side. The, because it, it just, you can pull so many more resources across reference, uh, so much, so much data that that’s, that’s gonna be super cool to play with and to integrate.

[00:27:34] But it’s the emotional intelligence, that human connection part that we, I don’t think you’ll ever be able to truly teach a, uh, a machine how to do it, can put the right words in place. But the, the tonality that the hand holding physically, the hand holding and, and personal connection, they won’t have, which is interesting.

[00:27:55] After we had our vision source exchange in San Antonio a couple weeks ago, and one of the discussion groups, there was a question to put out, said, Hey, what did you, you know, what was your biggest takeaway from the exchange? What did you learn? And I think every single one of them that I went through had a personal connection.

[00:28:13] A, a touchpoint in it. It wasn’t, you know, purely a piece of equipment, but it, you know, if it was equipment, it was an equipment because it’s going to help me do better with a patient. But most of it was, was really personality profiles or, you know, um, how could I can’t engage with a patient before they come into [00:28:30] practice or after the, after they leave the practice.

[00:28:32] It was really a lot of that, that personal human touch. 

[00:28:36] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: Yeah, I know. It’s, it’s interesting. I wonder if, I’m just thinking small about it because I’m like, you too. I think, well, of course humans are gonna be more human than, than robots will be. Right? But, but maybe we won’t be, you know, like to, the scary part is that we might not, you know, I, I don’t know.

[00:28:52] I think there’s still this, the, the, you know, the soul of a human that can’t be re replicated. You know, you can have the best programming in the world, but. You know, I think, um, maybe not. I don’t know. It, it, it, I think that is sort of, um, un you know, irre. Unreplaceable. Irreplaceable. Irreplaceable. I think that’s irreplaceable.

[00:29:17] Yeah. But, um, but yeah, I think, you know, answering patient questions, you know, patient emails in our natural response to answer that patient via email. Especially if we know the patient and we’ve already discussed their, their, um, their condition. We’ve already kind of gone over everything. We’re gonna be brief in our response to them.

[00:29:40] However we could use AI to get a more complete response and then just sort of personalize it from there. You know, Mrs. Smith, as we discussed, when you were in you, you know, we decided we were gonna treat you via X, Y, and z. Here’s some more background on your condition and some other things that you can [00:30:00] look up if you want to know more information, and then we can talk more about it, right?

[00:30:03] And you could use chat, G G P T to give you a, yep, a much more thorough explanation. But the human aspect of like, you know, we were talking about this with your daughter and X, Y, and Z, and now you’ve really personalized that. Plus used the AI to give, you know, better, more complete information. So, Yeah.

[00:30:23] That’s interesting. Yeah, it’s really interesting. Yep. I think 

[00:30:27] Dr. Aaron Werner: it’s, uh, well, two quick examples. One, um, not healthcare related. I had a, a high school friend pass away and went to his, his service, the, and I, I’m not good with words, especially written words, so I, I typed in what I wanted to share with his family and to chat G p T and asked it to make it, you know, have it come across with a tone of, of appropriate tone.

[00:30:50] And so it was able to make me. Come across better. And I shared that with the family and they appreciated it. But I, it, it didn’t replace the overall impact of me being there with them at that time. But collectively, I think that I was able to convey even more to the, you know, sincerity and love to the family than if it was just either by themselves.

[00:31:12] Um, and then I look at technology. Let’s take cataract surgery. You know, it, it. It used to be that a good surge cataract surgeon could tear a perfect little circle in in their capsulotomy. Well, they’ve got a laser to make that perfect circle now. So it’s, I still need a good surgeon, but it’s just made [00:31:30] my good surgeons that much better and they can focus on on other aspects.

[00:31:34] So I don’t think it ever takes away what we do. I think it just helps us become better as long as we use it appropriately. 

[00:31:40] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: Yeah. Yeah, I know. It’s, it is, uh, it’s really interesting. Um, and I think in a lot of ways, well, that’s what the Florida stuff is kind of weird with. Like, we’re in the wild West in a lot of ways.

[00:31:52] You know, telehealth is the wild West right now. I mean, you know, uh, I have no illusions. I don’t do this, but. There’s no, you know, I could certainly hop online and provide care to somebody in Florida and stick whatever credentials I would want to on the back of my name and that patient could hop on Stripe and give me their money and I could diagnose a foot problem and.

[00:32:15] Uh, most patients wouldn’t have any thoughts about it, right? Especially if they went to some other third party entity that they already abdicated their trust to, to say, you’re gonna do the background research on Dr. X, y, Z to know if they’re. If they’re appropriate for me to see. Right. And so, so we’re in the Wild West as it comes to technology, telehealth, technology, and ai and um, mm-hmm.

[00:32:42] So on the one hand we have that, on the other hand, we have this kind of, um, harsh sort of restriction and prohibition on people who are actually physically present with physical degrees. And so it’s weird. It’s really weird. 

[00:32:57] Dr. Aaron Werner: Uh, it is. Uh, and, [00:33:00] uh, I, I think the, the interesting part, and we’ll circle back to what we started with, with, you know, that what’s happening in, in, um, in our attitudes towards it is, uh, we had one of the keynotes from the exchange, John ak, and he talked about the stories we tell ourselves.

[00:33:18] And we can either be in a, in a world that’s crazy right now and going in 20 different directions and we feel like a, a ship without a sail and a rudder. Or we can think of how cool is the time that we’re in. Like, look at how we’re able to connect with people all across the world. Look at how we’re able to, to visually talk to each other.

[00:33:34] You and I watched this on the Jetsons, where you could talk to a screen and see the other person, and now we’re doing it on a daily basis. So it’s, so much is happening and so many advances are happening. And not all of ’em are positive, but the vast majority of ’em are. And we have the opportunity to take those and use them however we would like.

[00:33:54] And so the, the story of saying, Hey, you know, look at all these amazing things that are happening. Look at the things that I get to be a part of. Uh, this is the stuff that, you know, our dad’s going through school. I doubt ever even dreamed what happened. And, um, And so a lot of it just comes down to what, what the stories we tell ourselves, the stories we tell our patients, the stories we tell our teams and our staffs, and, you know, whether those are positive and optimistic and, you know, look where we’re gonna be not just in 10 years, but in two years.

[00:34:23] Um, or they could be negative and feel like that we’re being acted upon and everybody’s coming after us and, and [00:34:30] you know, then we get in some burnout issues. 

[00:34:32] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: I think, I think what I’ve learned over time is I, I have a good friend, his name is Tyson Compton. Um, in F three, we call him L P C, and um, it stuck with me, it was probably two months ago.

[00:34:44] L P C L P C. Yeah. Leather people carrier. So he’s a, he’s a Marine, and so when he, you know, somebody came up with that, so it’s basically like leather shoes. So that’s, that’s why I got his name, lpc. Uh, I had him on the, Podcast already before, probably two years ago. But anyway, a couple months ago he said, you know, um, He said to me, you know, I don’t really worry about opportunities anymore.

[00:35:10] Uh, what I’ve learned over time is that you just have to know. You just have to step, like, you don’t even have to know where to step when you think about opportunities. That’s why I think when I look at you, when I think about why you have such a positive outlook on the profession and on just your life in general, I, I don’t think I’ve necessarily been conscious of it until the last.

[00:35:30] Three or four years. But I think that’s what makes me really optimistic about, even though I kind of reflect on things that might be, might be negative, I, I’m optimistic, I’m wholly optimistic about the profession, about my, my place in the profession, about our place in the healthcare system as optometry.

[00:35:48] Um, and then just our place in the world as humans. I think I’m always optimistic in general. Um, Because I just feel like you just have to step right all, all you have to do. You don’t have to even, you know, just don’t, I [00:36:00] mean, don’t make big mistakes, right? Don’t, don’t just be dumb, but like, you just have to take the first step in some direction.

[00:36:08] And if you do that enough, you’ll find yourself in the right place. I, I believe that. I mean, it’s one of the beauties of being an American probably, but I believe that for any optometrist that exists right now is just, just step, just take, take a motion in some direction and have an idea of where that direction is gonna take you, and then take the next step, and then take the next step and take the next step.

[00:36:30] And, and that just makes me optimistic. Yeah. Um, maybe it makes me naive too, but I think it just makes me optimistic because it’s, it’s just always, there’s always opportunity. You just have to look. You just have to. Make the initial movement toward it. 

[00:36:43] Dr. Aaron Werner: Absolutely. I love that. And just, you know, cuz you can always step in a different direction, but yeah, just take a step, make a, make a, uh, a decision.

[00:36:51] Um, and quite frankly, one of the, uh, the reasons that that. You know, I wanted to do the podcast that I’m doing with Visions Source is to just talk to all the really cool people that are doing cool things that have taken those steps. And some of them are huge. Mm-hmm. And some of ’em are, are, you know, seemingly on the surface, maybe, you know, not overly significant, but they’ve, they’ve had huge impacts.

[00:37:11] And just learning from other people, hearing their stories. Hearing the, the steps they’ve taken and, and some of the times where they’ve, they’ve stumbled a little bit, but how they’ve been able to keep taking steps to, uh, uh, to become more positive is, is selfishly, it’s inspirational to me. And, uh, and, and [00:37:30] being able to record it and share it with, with others, and hopefully they’re getting ideas and.

[00:37:34] Getting motivated to take their own steps. 

[00:37:37] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: Yeah, totally. All right. Well, so Aaron, I, I, I have a whole bunch of other stuff that, that I could talk to you about, but I, I think, um, I think you and I should be respectful. I’ll be respectful of your time For sure. Um, so. Let everybody know on my podcast when they’re listening to my podcast, where can they find your podcast?

[00:37:56] Yep. 

[00:37:56] Dr. Aaron Werner: So Independent Insights is the, uh, the name of the podcast and, uh, we really make an attempt to have, uh, have shorter conversations, which is a challenge. But, uh, about 20, 25 minutes, uh, focused on, um, You know, just one thing that that impacts, uh, independent owned private practices, uh, I think it’s really applicable to, to really in any independent business, but, uh, independent insights and, uh, or where you get your podcast.

[00:38:22] We should be there. 

[00:38:24] Dr. Christopher Wolfe: And, and really from a, from my perspective when I listen to this, Aaron, obviously, uh, you, you’re talking about things related to Vision Source, but this could be applicable to anybody inside or outside Vision Source. So if you haven’t listened to Aaron’s podcast yet and uh, and you are not a Vision Source member, you’re gonna get a lot out of it.

[00:38:41] If you are a Vision Source member, you’re gonna get a lot out of it too. Um, so thanks Aaron, for being on. I appreciate it.

Independent Insights with Dr. Aaron Werner 

Independent Insights with Dr. Aaron Werner