TVoL: Being Led Through Mentorship with Jim Greenwood

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• CooperVision
• MacuHealth
• EssilorLuxottica

[00:00:00] Jim Greenwood: Welcome 

[00:00:07] Ted McElroy: to the Vision of Leadership Podcast. I’m your host, Ted McElroy. This podcast is dedicated to helping you find your wins, have a better quality of life, and become the best leader you can be. 

[00:00:18] Jim Greenwood: Hey, have you subscribed to this podcast yet? Don’t 

[00:00:21] Ted McElroy: miss an episode. They’re worth every single thing you paid for ’em, which is nothing because they’re free.

[00:00:26] I invite you to subscribe to the podcast by hitting the subscribe button, give us a rating and a review on your specific podcast player. This helps us with our podcast rankings and makes it easier for people to find us, and as always, please support those who help support us. On episode 102 of this podcast, Chris interviewed Justin Kwan, Michelle Andrews and Richard Ruth.

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[00:02:01] Welcome to the Visional Leadership Podcast. I’m Ted McElroy, and today I have my very good friend, Mr. Jim Greenwood. Uh, Jim and I have known each other for quite a few years. Uh, he has worked as c e o for a company called Concentra. We’ll get him to talk about that a little bit, where I know him is from his role at Vision Source for almost seven years, uh, as the CEO there, and that’s where he first got connected.

[00:02:25] Uh, he’s, uh, been a great influence on me. Uh, he al now is working with a company called Retinal Consultants of America, and they are doing some great things. We’ll get a chance to talk about that as well. Uh, he’s an avid golfer, loves to smoke some cigars, and, uh, and we have a lot of good laughs together.

[00:02:42] So Jim, welcome to the podcast. I’m glad to have 

[00:02:44] Jim Greenwood: you here. Ted, I didn’t know you were going to air some of the dirty laundry. Well, you know, 

[00:02:51] Ted McElroy: yeah, yeah. We, we gotta have a little bit. It’s, you know, that’s, if that’s our biggest vice, I think we’re fine. You know? Yeah. 

[00:02:55] Jim Greenwood: Yeah. My wife is a hawk. I don’t care. [00:03:00] How long it was when I had a cigar.

[00:03:01] But if I had one, any point in the day, she knows it. I 

[00:03:04] Ted McElroy: am the same way. In fact, the only time I will do this now is when, like, when I’m off with you guys or somebody else, you know, and I’m not gonna see her for a couple of days because of that. Well, and I gotta admit, uh, uh, you know, I, I enjoy one cigar because the next morning it is like an ashtray has landed in my mouth.

[00:03:22] I gotcha. The next morning. So otherwise, you know, it’s great j while I’m doing it, it’s not much fun the next day. Right. So, uh, you know, a lot of our audience does know you. I mean, we get quite a few Vision Source members that are listening, but I don’t know that they really know your origin story and how you got to where you are, um, as you went through with Concentra and then on with Vision Source and, and now, uh, with retinal consultants.

[00:03:46] So, would you mind just talking about that and how you got interested in this side of, of your 

[00:03:51] Jim Greenwood: life? Right. Well, initially I was in public accounting right out of college, and I often tell people the only good thing [00:04:00] about public accounting was that’s where I met my wife of now 37 years. And after about two and a half years of that left to go work for a client, and that client happened to be a commercial bank in Texas, and this is back in the late 1980s when we had a, a banking crisis.

[00:04:17] Kind of timely with what we’ve seen in the news for the last 10 days or so. Right. But anyway, back then, uh, for those who will recall, there were literally two or three banks failing every Friday throughout the state of Texas. And we were able to build a statewide franchise by buying those banks from the F D I C.

[00:04:35] And that went on for about four years. And then Bank One, now Chase acquired us. Mm-hmm. And it went from that entrepreneurial, great, fun environment to big company felt like I was working, you know, in a government type sector. So I told the CFO of the bank where I was, uh, cuz he left immediately. He [00:05:00] never joined the acquirer, or he got into healthcare as a CFO of a private equity backed organization working with physicians.

[00:05:09] And I told him, Gary, I said, look, if there’s ever an opportunity company doing what you’re doing, please uh, Keep me in mind. And it didn’t take long. It was about six months later when an opportunity did present itself when co Concentra was being formed. Uh, and they needed a young person such as myself and my background to be the cfo.

[00:05:30] And that was April 19th, 1993. Two years later, we went public. When I started, there were only about 30 physicians associated with the company. Two years later, there were about 200. We went public back in the 1990s, a lot of these physician businesses were going public. Mm-hmm. And I, it was just a fabulous team, great opportunity.

[00:05:53] I hated being the c f O of a public company. Did that for, from 95 to 97, and [00:06:00] then we did another big merger. And we kind of took the management team from the company we merged with and ours. And there was an opportunity for me to do corporate development, which is mergers and acquisitions, which I just loved.

[00:06:13] And I did that for 10 years, from 97 to oh seven, and we grew to probably about eight or 900 physicians during that time. Concentra did, and then some things happened, and the private equity firm, we had been taken private from the public setting. So we had a new owner, private company again, and the private equity firm said, okay, Greenwood, we want you to be the ceo.

[00:06:40] This is 2007. And I tell people that I’m the most reluctant c e o ever. I had no ambition. I had no desire. I loved, you know, having a small team doing mergers and acquisitions, getting to know people who are trying to sell their business and figure out a fair price and, and all of that. I loved it. So [00:07:00] nevertheless, I, I said, okay, we’ll do it.

[00:07:03] So at the same time, Ted, uh, the, the private equity firm said, Hey, this urgent care thing is really becoming pretty popular. These quick clinics where you can go in and, and see a doctor real quickly and get a prescription. Again, we’re 2007 ish. Yeah. And at the time, Concentra had 300 clinics. We’re in 40 states, 30,000 patients a day.

[00:07:28] But we were 100% occupational medicine, which means we, the management team, the physicians, everybody in those 300 clinics viewed the employer as our client, you know, up PS or FedEx or Walmart or the fire department, whoever was sending us their employees. For drug tests, for work-related physical exams, or if they were injured on the job, it was our job to get ’em back to work quickly, to get ’em well.

[00:07:57] So that was our business model. [00:08:00] And because of that, the clinic experience, the patient experience inside the clinics was, uh, it could be dreadful in some of ’em. Literally if a patient, sure, to get a drug test and they were a u p s truck driver and they had to wait for an hour for a urine, you know, a urine test, we didn’t really care as long as u p s was happy.

[00:08:21] So that was the culture, and we had great outcomes. We did a great job saving workers’ comp costs for employers. But this urgent care brand, as you know and your listeners know, to go into an urgent care clinic, you wanna be in and out. You wanna, you wanna have a great experience, warm, welcoming from the staff and be treated with respect and all those things.

[00:08:46] And that wasn’t our clinic pitcher. So anyway, the, I’m telling you this story, because I was a numbers guy, I was a CPA at mergers and acquisitions. I had no [00:09:00] clue the power of having a mission driven culture in the workplace. Okay? Our culture was all about just, we were a bunch of bean counters. Yeah, let’s just save employers money.

[00:09:13] Let’s be as efficient as we can, et cetera. So our team, at the time, I had just become ceo. Our team set out to learn from high performing customer service focused organizations, most of which were not in healthcare. And I happened to know a couple of gentlemen who had been at Southwest Airlines for many years.

[00:09:36] Again, this is back in oh seven. Southwest Airlines was an absolute darling uh, company. Their culture is was amazing back then. Yeah. And we had one of those two individuals come to a senior team retreat and coach us on how they created their culture and what I learned over the next 18 months, [00:10:00] which just fueled me to try to share that story with as many people as I possibly can, whether it’s an optt.

[00:10:07] Who has 12 employees in one or two locations, or a company with 5,000 employees. I wanna just help people appreciate how much more compelling it is for the entire workforce to have a mission, to have core values that really means something for the organization or the medical practice, whatever it is, and ultimately make it, make it that patient’s experience an amazing one.

[00:10:37] Okay? Mm-hmm. So one of the key things we learned was that Southwest Airlines spent an inordinate amount of time creating a family culture that was fun, but still competitive. They, you know, they, they wanted to win and hadn’t have good financial results, but at the same time, they wanted to. [00:11:00] Yeah, just create a wow experience, right?

[00:11:02] And they, and they caught people doing the right thing and celebrated it. We didn’t celebrate victories at Concentra. We always focused on the poor performing clinics. You know, the bottom 10%. And what are the, why are they at the bottom of the of pack instead of thanking? The people that were in the upper upper tier, the top third performers, catching people doing the right thing, celebrating it, making a big thing about folks who really got the values that we were trying to, uh, integrate into the organization and make a difference.

[00:11:38] I, I’ve always been fascinated that Southwest Airlines has three core values, fun-loving. Mm-hmm. A servant’s heart and a Warrior spirit, warrior spirit, and not, I don’t, I mean, how many people know the core values of other companies, and that’s, this is how big of a deal it was for me. And they have some really interesting interview techniques.

[00:11:57] I’ll share just one of them with you to how they, [00:12:00] how they attract the right people into that organization that do share their core values. They do a lot of group interviews, and the way this guy from Southwest described it to our team back then was. They’ll have six, uh, pilot candidates come in, they’ve all got the right credentials.

[00:12:16] They can all fly an airplane. Yeah. They come in with their blue suits and their red ties and their white shirts, and they’re sitting in the lobby and the person from Human Resources comes and says, all right, follow me. Takes ’em to a room and has Hawaiian shorts for them to put on. And they, the human resources person actually asked these six pilot candidates to put on the Hawaiian shorts for their interview.

[00:12:39] And the way he told the story was four of ’em would put on, will put on the shorts, and the other two are really happy at United. They’re, they’re not fun loving. They take themselves too seriously. So anyway, we as an organization, again, we had about 8,000 employees at the time with a dreadful culture. [00:13:00] Our net promoter score, when we started measuring it was, Negative in many clinics.

[00:13:05] On average, it was probably low single digits. And over an 18 month time period, we saw that get into the mid sixties, 65 to 70, which is a net promoter score that’s commensurate with U S A A and where Southwest Airlines was back then. Really high qual. Costco is another one that was up there, is often renowned for great customer service.

[00:13:27] So anyway, I saw it happen. I, I saw the excitement and it creates value for the sh whoever owns the organization, whether it’s an optometrist. Who has a clinic with 10 or 12 employees or somebody who’s got 5,000 employees, it, it’s makes a difference. Yeah. It, it reduces your, your turnover. Employees, if they just love what they do and who they do it with, they’re not as worried about that next 50 cents an hour, that type of thing.

[00:13:55] And it was just an amazing experience. And then we were acquired by Humana [00:14:00] and our seven or 8,000 employees got buried inside an organization with 55,000 employees. And I saw that culture that we worked so hard to build, get torn down pretty quickly, unfortunately. And that’s when I met the founder of Vision Source in late 2012.

[00:14:19] And, uh, was really excited and thrilled to become a part of that team in early 2013, often telling people that I felt like a missing puzzle piece. So it was just a tremendous group of people. At Vision Source and I just showed up and I, I felt like, oh, you know, I’m just the, the one piece that was needed to just keep the momentum going.

[00:14:41] So that’s how I got the Vision 

[00:14:43] Ted McElroy: Source. So it was a, it was a great time for me while you were there and just getting to watch you, um, with the organization and the way you let us, you know, it was, I believe, you know, you were the first one to say this, that I’d heard it put this [00:15:00] way, but you lived it. I mean, your c e o role was Chief Encouragement Officer and, you know, it was, it was so nice having someone there who held us accountable, but did it in such a loving, graceful way.

[00:15:12] Uh, I just, I wanna, you know, I, I’m gonna say this in front, everybody. I, I wanna thank you for that part of it because it was a great, uh, mentorship that you gave us while you were there, um, you know, for the almost seven years that you were there. And how, how did, how did a company like Vision Source look attractive to you after you’re in this organization?

[00:15:32] I mean, you were at Concenter for 20 years, 

[00:15:35] Jim Greenwood: right? Right. Well, first of all, it was the founder, uh, Glenn Ellisor and I met in, uh, a cafe and a Sunday afternoon and halfway between Dallas and Houston for half a cup of coffee and lunch together. And within five minutes, it just was a fabulous chemistry in terms of our values and we’re completely aligned with how we wanna live life.

[00:15:58] And, and what was [00:16:00] fascinating for me, Ted, is, and I know you’ve heard me say this, I’m sure, but my perception of optometry. Before I joined Vision Source and started meeting the fabulous folks who are part of the world of Op of Optometry, not just Vision Source was, it was more, much more about the retail aspect.

[00:16:21] Yeah. It’s where people went to get their eyeglasses and their contact lenses and their, and the prescriptions and their, their, their, uh, eye exams. I’d had no clue about how the medical, uh, component of optometry was. It could be. So it was, it was how, the best way to put this, it was just completely underappreciated.

[00:16:47] The perception of the profession was completely wrong, and I, for the first six months I was there, there at Vision Source getting to know these fabulous doctors and learning more about the equipment that most of them [00:17:00] had in their practices. I was talking to people, as many people as I could, asking the question about what do you.

[00:17:05] What comes to mind when you hear the word optometry and you know, a lot of ’em are confused. They don’t understand optometry, ophthalmology. But for the most part, it was the doctor in the mall where I get my eyeglasses. Yeah. Which is completely wrong, particularly as it relates to private practice. So I just, you know, that got me so jazzed because I’m, so, the other thing that, you know, drives me from a business perspective is this healthcare system that we have in the us it’s, it’s so broken.

[00:17:37] I, I call it a sick care system because the more sick people we have, the, the more people are gonna get paid. Hospitals are generally the biggest employer in most cities, and we really need to evolve that. And it’s starting to happen where primary care physicians are starting to get recogniz. To get paid more.

[00:17:58] I mean, the, the specialists [00:18:00] they get paid the most today and they take care of sick people. Right, right. Primary care physicians, there’s some miles evolving through Medicare Advantage primarily. That’s, that’s rewarding them for keeping people well and keeping them out of the hospital. And optometry is such a wonderful compliment to the primary care physicians in terms of identifying disease states early on, people might not even go to a primary care doctor unless they have a sinus infection, but maybe they’ll go to their optometrist maybe every 18 months at least to get their contact lens prescription renewed.

[00:18:35] Right. Right. And if that disease state, if that optometrist can identify, Hey, you’ve got some issues, let’s get you to a primary care physician. That’s, that’s a great thing for overall health in America. So that, that’s what really energized me, was trying to change the perception of optometry in the minds of as many healthcare leaders possible.

[00:18:58] And it just, so yeah, [00:19:00] as you had that role, 

[00:19:01] Ted McElroy: uh, you know, you are our leader, but who are you looking to? For your leadership? I mean, what was, what were some of your, who were some of your mentors? How did you, how did you grow your leadership? Because I mean, I, I would, I would presume being at a level of, of leadership where you are, that starts to get a little bit more difficult.

[00:19:19] You’ve become a little bit more in a rarefied air situation. 

[00:19:23] Jim Greenwood: Well, I would, I would say I, I’ve been blessed from the time I left. I left public accounting. One of the key reasons was I didn’t have any mentors. The firm I was with, literally I’d get on the elevator as a first year person, and there were two partners in the elevator with me, with the same accounting firm.

[00:19:40] We’re all going to the 15th floor, right? Yeah. So I’d push the, the button for 15, and they wouldn’t say a word to me. They were just, I hate to put it this way, the kind of stereotypical accountants. Yeah. And, uh, and I just, I, I yearned for that type of mentorship. I had a fabulous father who, you know, [00:20:00] you know, was number one, first and foremost, the best mentor I could have ever had growing up.

[00:20:05] But I didn’t see it in public accounting. Gotten into the banking world as I described. Had a couple of successful bankers who just, whatever saw potential in me and they gave me opportunities, uh, to grow and coached me and were available to me. And then when I got into Concentra, there’s a gentleman named John Carlisle, who was a c e O, who took a risk and hired this young 32 year old to be the cfo.

[00:20:30] F And John has been incredibly successful in healthcare. And guess what? He was one of the investors in Vision Source. He was on the board of Vision Source. He was one of the key reasons I got to meet Clint Ellisor in November of nine, of 2012. So John has been, we’re coming up on the 30th anniversary of me starting to work with him in April of, uh, 1993.

[00:20:56] And he’s always been there for me and he’s [00:21:00] extremely successful leader business guy. Um, And then from, uh, Glenn and Bobby Christensen and the people who really built Vision Source for the first 20 years were just so welcoming and so willing to be patient with me and help me learn the business and get to know the people, uh, you know, got me out, you know, traveling the country, introducing me to Vision Source leaders and doctors throughout the country and which was so important.

[00:21:29] So, you know, I look at Carlisle as just a fabulous mentor. The doctor to help build Vision Source were extremely, uh, Just fabulous partners to me. And then I have a gentleman who actually just passed away late last year, who really has been the mentor that I needed on the family and faith side, uh, 10 years older than me, and always encouraging me and available to me as a sounding board.

[00:21:59] [00:22:00] And that’s one of the things, as I’ve thought about spending some time with you here, uh, for young people, there’s just so many people don’t take advantage of people that could be in their life, whether it’s in church, whether it’s in business, whether it’s, you know, family, whatever, to learn from the mistakes of others.

[00:22:24] That’s kind of what Vision Source is, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, vision Source, you know, if you’re an administrator, uh, or a leader in a city or state, You’re, you wanna help those young ods avoid mistakes? You know, helping shortcuts to success was often said, and I just, I’ve been so blessed. But as a young person and somebody who likes to mentor people, you don’t wanna waste their time, right?

[00:22:51] You know, the, the mentor’s time, right? You really, you really need to be a good listener and demonstrate that you, you are listening [00:23:00] and that you’re taking their advice and trying to implement that into your life. I can’t if you respect them enough to, you know, to try to build that relationship in the first place.

[00:23:09] So I just, I can’t, you know, you know, when I think about shaping your life, shaping your career, shaping your own leadership, there’s nothing better than identifying. Some people who’ve been successful in whatever you wanna do, and really try to lean in and, and learn from them one-on-one guys can’t be beat better than any classroom 

[00:23:34] Ted McElroy: or anything.

[00:23:34] Right. So when you, when you’ve identified somebody like that, how, how do you, how do you approach ’em and then how do you go through that men t ship, I’m gonna use that word, uh mm-hmm. To, to show them that you’re really not just there to waste their time. I mean, you know, how would you prepare for something like that?

[00:23:52] Jim Greenwood: Well, it was, it was kind of a natural thing, uh, where I was just really fortunate. Like [00:24:00] in the church, the guy I alluded to who just passed away late last year, uh, literally my wife and I walked into a church and we’ve been visiting, trying to plug into a church. Couldn’t find one that we really connected with.

[00:24:11] Went to this particular little Bible church, Dallas, Texas. And after the service, this big six foot five of a guy comes up to us and says, Hey, I’m Bob Gray. What are you doing for lunch? And we kinda looked at each other and said, wow. Nothing. Well, there’s my wife. Go tell her you’re gonna come over for lunch.

[00:24:30] I’ll get some other people and we’ll have a great time. So, you know, he kind of just grabbed us. Yeah. And I respected the, you know, you know, the way he did life. The, you know, the husband, he was the father, he was, he was really engaged in the church. And it was just, I was just a sponge. I, I, I, I met with him on a regular basis.

[00:24:54] I, I did what he suggested I do, and it just kind of [00:25:00] flowed from there. And then, you know, the other, uh, mentors that I’ve spoken of in the business setting were really either a peer or somebody that I worked for with Carlisle. So, and again, I was, I, I tell my kids this, I tell young people this all the time, Ted, that.

[00:25:21] The, the power of networking, the power of connecting with winners in life, people who’ve been successful. Again, whatever you’re striving to do is invaluable. And, uh, you do, you put, you do have to be active. You have to listen, like I said, and take good notes and then come back to ’em and, and talk about what you did over the last month or quarter.

[00:25:46] There’s a young guy that I’m mentoring right now, and I, and with Retina Consultants of America, there’s a tremendous amount of really sharp young people and just high potential, high energy folks, real bright. And this one in [00:26:00] particular joined us about six to eight months ago, and, uh, he’s about 25 years old.

[00:26:07] And I tell all these folks, I said, look, I will be as available to you as you want. All you have to do is get me on your calendar and well guess what? Every quarter. He’s getting me on his lunch calendar and three days before we have lunch, I’m getting a list of five things that he wants to talk about.

[00:26:26] Okay. And getting whether it’s advice. Yeah. So it’s very, he prepares, right, he plans. And then the next quarter when we’ve gotten together, we’ve done this two times, soon to be three times. And he gives me an update on, you know, how he’s doing on the things we talked about last time, and then here’s three or four new things that he wants to talk about.

[00:26:47] So it’s, it’s just that engagement, um, and really being genuine and intentional and, uh, disciplined. I guess another word that I’d use, 

[00:26:58] Ted McElroy: so when you’re coming [00:27:00] in, I mean, you’re basically saying come prepared, have some questions. And I would presume having some questions means you ask a question and you sit there and listen.

[00:27:11] It’s not your time to talk and try and impress that mentor is that. Accurate. 

[00:27:17] Jim Greenwood: It is, it is. Um, he certainly, he, he frames the question or the issue, and it could be personal cause we, we align in terms of our personal lives and our business lives. But he, he kind of, he’ll give an example of here’s why I’m, I’m stuck on this.

[00:27:35] What do you think, you know, what would the best course of action be for that? Or what decision would you make? That type of thing. But yeah, and then sit back and be a good listener. Somebody told me once that you should always finish your lunch first. It helps guarantee the other person’s doing more of the talking.

[00:27:56] Yeah, that’s true. Yeah, 

[00:27:58] Ted McElroy: that’s true. And uh, [00:28:00] you know, I’m, I get, well, I’m always in danger of that cuz I just eat really fast. But, uh, on top of that I do ask a lot of questions. Um, when you thought back on some of your mentors and some of the times you’ve had, uh, what would you say was probably one of the most, uh, influential pieces of advice you got from one of those mentors?

[00:28:22] Jim Greenwood: Well, um, I would say the importance of doing the right thing. I mean, uh, uh, from a business perspective. When you’re going public, there’s a lot of stress on every Oh yeah. Involved in the company. Uh, you’re trying to deal a bunch of acquisitions, you’re trying to operate the business, and on top of all that, going public is just a tremendous sap of your time.

[00:28:54] And there can be temptations. And particularly as a cfo, you wanna hit your numbers [00:29:00] right. And if you miss your numbers on a quarterly basis, when at you’re a public company, your stock price could go from $30 to $4 in a day. So Carlisle had a financial background as well, but Integr, you know, it was just, he said, we’re, we’re gonna do the right thing.

[00:29:19] You know, if you’ve ever did have a rough patch like that, we’re just gonna take our lumps and fight through it. So, whereas, you know, particularly in this day and age, I think there’s far too many people who do the wrong thing for their own personal financial gain. Uh, and ultimately that’s just not the way that, that I was going to operate.

[00:29:39] And, and John was a big influence. If John would’ve had a different viewpoint, I might, as a young person, I might have gotten sucked into a different pathway when it comes to that type of thing. Yeah. 

[00:29:54] Ted McElroy: So how do you know what the right thing is? 

[00:29:58] Jim Greenwood: Oh, I think, uh, [00:30:00] you know, the core values of, you know, having integrity and, you know, your character is more important than anything in business.

[00:30:13] Uh,

[00:30:17] um,

[00:30:21] you know, I, I, uh, I would say being aligned with the right people helps in that regard. Uh,

[00:30:37] But you know, the being, you know, the right thing is, you know, many times you could say it’s the golden rule do is to, you know, do as you would mm-hmm. Others as you would’ve them do to you. So, 

[00:30:49] Ted McElroy: and have you found yourself in situations where there was a really potentially great outcome? But [00:31:00] it didn’t turn out to be the right thing.

[00:31:02] I mean, you don’t have to mention any names, obviously, but I mean, or or circumstance. You could tell us about where, yeah. You, you, yeah. That looks, that really looks shiny and everything, but I don’t know about 

[00:31:12] Jim Greenwood: that. Yeah, I would, I would say, Ted, there was a, a moment in my life when Concentra had been taken private, so this is in the late nineties, and the private equity firm that had acquired us asked me to consider joining their firm and moving to New York City.

[00:31:35] And as you probably know, people in private equity, from a financial perspective, it’s just crazy, right? Yeah. And here I am in Dallas, Texas. We had three kids. My wife’s from Dallas, had a wonderful team that I was working with, a wonderful company. But financially it would’ve been. Crazy. I mean, [00:32:00] from a worldly perspective, you know, going to New York and getting involved with private equity, everyone would’ve, you know, pat on the back.

[00:32:09] Congratulations. But I didn’t even give it the time of day. I said, that’s not right for me and my family. You know, I, I shut it down within a day of him asking me. But when I, later on in life, when I would tell people that story, they said, you, you did what? You, you said no to that opportunity. You didn’t even explore it.

[00:32:30] I said, no, my family, my faith, my wife remaining in, in Dallas, Texas was far more important than any financial carrot that that would’ve represented. 

[00:32:43] Ted McElroy: So you’ve obviously got a, a set of personal core values. Yeah. I mean, do you have them written down somewhere? No, you just have ’em carry ’em with you in your heart 

[00:32:52] Jim Greenwood: all the time.

[00:32:53] Yeah, I think it’s, you know, it’s things like being authentic. You know, the, the thing I’ll, I’ll just quote a scripture. [00:33:00] Proverbs three, five and six, uh, trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean, you know, lean out on your own understanding and he’ll direct your paths. Uh, and that happened to be the same key verses for Glen Ellisor of all things.

[00:33:15] Yeah. So I think it’s just to use my faith as a sounding board for key decisions and other people who share my faith that are in my life, like the Bob Brak, obviously my wife and other friends. And, uh, uh, so I think my core values are really centered on, on my faith. 

[00:33:42] Ted McElroy: And, and you know, it’s for those of us that know you.

[00:33:44] I mean, it is part of who you are. And, and that’s one of the things I think we love about you the most, is the fact that you’re unapologetic about your faith. And, uh, I, it, it, I really admire that because there’s so few people I think, in the world that do that, that are, you know, willing to say, you know, I’m a [00:34:00] follower of Christ and, and it means this much to me, but it’s still at the same point.

[00:34:04] Don’t make somebody feel uncomfortable because they’re not. And, uh, you know, that’s one of the things I’ve always admired about the way you handle yourself. And, uh, it’s, it’s just 

[00:34:12] Jim Greenwood: impressive. Well, the thing I’d like to share, Ted, that, uh, I was just asked about this for the pastor at our church about how do you integrate your faith into business?

[00:34:22] And I found three books that, you know, anytime you’re involved in a business, developing leaders is an important thing to do. You know, whether it’s a small business, medium sized business, or a large business. And the three books that I’ll share the titles with you, they’re all written by Christians and they’re all business focused, but strong foundation of biblical principles, okay?

[00:34:50] Mm-hmm. Usually around servant leadership, but one of is called Lead with Love, l u v. It’s, it’s a Southwest [00:35:00] airline story as told by Blanchard. So Lead with Love is a great one. There’s another one called The Way of the Shepherd by Lehman is his last name, but it’s all, it’s a parable about a young guy who gets an opportunity to interview a.

[00:35:15] A fabulous ceo and the CEO tells him, well, when I was getting my mba, I had this professor who had a ranch, and he invited me to come out to his ranch on several weekends. And the, the, the professor that poured into this young c e o and he was an MBA student, was basically using the f the, the of a sheep burger, a shepherd.

[00:35:39] Uh, and how that applies to business things like, what’s the condition of your flock, what’s the shape of your flock, uh, do your sheep identify with you? Uh, make your pasture a safe place, protect the sheep. But it’s, it’s a fabulous book. It’s called The Way of the Shepherd, and then Lead With Love, and then Love Works by Joel Manby.

[00:35:58] Mm-hmm. That’s another real good one. [00:36:00] And what you can do with books like that is you’re not, you’re not throwing the Bible at somebody, but you’re throwing them a book on leadership with biblical principles, and you’re, and you’re going through that with them in the workplace. Which isn’t offensive to anybody because it’s just, it shouldn’t be offensive to anybody.

[00:36:21] And it makes a real big difference. And it helps them, helps open up conversations about, you know, spiritual things in addition to business things. 

[00:36:32] Ted McElroy: And, and by having this connection, you’re also allowing people to understand where you’re coming from and how this much, how much this means to you, and how much you mean to them, right.

[00:36:44] Or how much they mean to you too, you know? So it’s, it’s a really nice, reciprocal way of just interacting with people. And, uh, I think that’s one of the great things that I’ve seen you do in the past. It’s, uh, and it’s one of, again, one of the reasons I admire you so 

[00:36:56] Jim Greenwood: much. Well, you know, the, the thing Ted, about [00:37:00] servant leadership, it’s, you know, Christ was the most amazing servant of all times, but yeah.

[00:37:05] You know, business org charts, what do they look like? Usually like, like this, right? Mm-hmm. Pyramid. Well, servant leadership, it’s. Upside down, and you’re serving the people that you interface with, helping them reach their full potential so they can in turn, do the same and ultimately bubbles up to the customer, uh, who should have a wonderful experience when they interact with your business.

[00:37:26] So, and there’s just so many principles through that, that, you know, thinking about the other person more than yourself and really trying to help them reach their full potential. 

[00:37:37] Ted McElroy: So, as you ascend the roles of these different, uh, chairmanships that you have, um, how mu how important are habits to you in your daily life and what you’re doing to get you where you need to go?

[00:37:53] Jim Greenwood: Well, I actually share with our kids and the [00:38:00] young business leaders that I come into contact with the importance of, of having that discipline around the certain habits. I’ve al, you know, and I, if you look back at my life, I was shaped by something that you’re going to laugh at, but I cadid from seventh grade through 12th grade, and so carried two bags of golf clubs for four and a half hours for people who may or may not have been very good golfers, but talked about, and you had to get up early to get there, to get out early or you as an all day affair.

[00:38:38] But if you could get up early as a 13 year, And be at the golf course at seven o’clock. You could get out on the course by eight o’clock and be home by one. It’s funny how little things like that can really shape you. So I’ve always been an ear early riser, which gives you the time before phones start ringing, before email lights up, [00:39:00] to spend time on your relationship that’s going up.

[00:39:03] And then just to think strategically. So many people just jump into their day and here’s my to-do list and these are things I wanna focus on. But too few people carve out time just to sit and think big picture strategically, you know, you know, cast vision. It’s so important as a leader to be able to clearly commu communicate a compelling clear.

[00:39:30] And if you’re just so caught in the tyranny of your urgent, you don’t ha you’re not able to be as effective as a leader. So I, I really try to coach folks on, you know, get your day started early, have quiet time, uh, for yourself to sit back and plan things you wanna accomplish. And, uh, and obviously, From my perspective, you know, finding the importance of having time with your bride, your spouse, mission [00:40:00] critical, you know, getting that on the calendar, making sure that happens because, oh yeah, for sure.

[00:40:04] You know, of all the, it sounds, you know, everyone said this a million times, but it’s so important to have a spouse that’s supportive. Uh, the young man who’s leading this retina business, 42 years old, and I often describe him as a 60 year old and a 42 year old body who’s got a tremendous amount of energy and he’s extremely bright and experienced beyond his years.

[00:40:34] But his wife is just amazing cuz he’s, he’s traveling 60% of the time. He’s on phone calls with physicians, you know, after they’re done practicing. So a lot of his evenings are chewed up with that. And she’s incredible. Likewise, I had an incredible wife in the 1990s. We had three kids. Our company went public.

[00:40:53] I was working, you know, six days a week, had no hobbies. That’s another thing that’s important for young leaders. If you, if you’re really [00:41:00] got to dive in like this, you know, your personal hobbies kind of gets set to decide, in my opinion, they should for 10 or 15 years invest in your kids, your wife, your business.

[00:41:10] And that was also really involved with the church. And that was my life and. So I, again, it’s just, there’s, there’s personal sacrifice, no doubt, um, that’s required of a leader, uh, to do a good job as a leader, uh, serve people. 

[00:41:29] Ted McElroy: You say personal sacrifice, but really, I mean, when you look at it, it’s probably the most valuable pieces of the puzzle that you have, you know?

[00:41:37] And I think one of the things that I’ve tried to realize, and I a lot of times realize that sometimes too late, more, more often than I did, I did realize it early enough, but every time I’ve said yes to something, I’ve said no to something else. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I’ve gotta decide, which, yes, I’ve got to truly.

[00:41:55] Put my all in, all into and what’s gonna really give me the most result, return on what I want outta [00:42:00] life. Uh, you know, and, and if I don’t figure out what my priorities are, everything sounds like a yes, right? And then I’m making bad decisions because I’m saying yes to too many things, and I don’t have time to say no to the right or to the wrong things, 

[00:42:15] Jim Greenwood: right?

[00:42:16] Like you, you may have heard a gentleman that spoke division source from time to time, Ted. Uh, when somebody calls you and wants to go out to lunch, let’s say, uh, well what do you want? Instead of just jumping ahead and scheduling the lunch, which could take an hour and a half, you try mm-hmm. Drive time and everything.

[00:42:35] Can I help you on the phone right now? Right. Uh, you know, that could be a 10 minute conversation and give that person more than. You know, you know, we’re thinking they’d get, you know, exceed their expectations. Like the book Go-Giver. Always try to give the other person more than they expect and saved yourself maybe an hour and a half of your, of your time.

[00:42:56] But yeah, yeah. Your point about you have to [00:43:00] say no to things you have. For me, it was saying no to playing golf on weekends. Cause literally every Saturday morning I went in and I had quiet time in the office. I tried to get there by six or seven o’clock on Saturday morning and leave by noon to be home, the balance of the day with the kids, and then Sunday turn everything off and, and be with the family as well.

[00:43:21] Ted McElroy: Yeah. For us it was, it was like, um, our weekends were tied up with swim meets and cross country meets, and just like you, I mean, I, I gave up golf probably from the time my children turned, probably around eight, unless I could convince one of them to go out with me to go play. Right. And then I didn’t. I, well, I take that back.

[00:43:40] So I had, I actually played golf extremely regularly for my kids’ high school years. I played on the same golf course on the same weekend with the same people once a year. And one of those times with you was at, it was at Harbortown, you know, once a year I played with Bob [00:44:00] Burns, I play with Brian Con, I play with you and I play with, uh, Ian Bookley.

[00:44:03] That was the only time I played golf was, you know, that once a year when we would go up there the week before Thanksgiving. I did that for at least four or five years. Wow. And, you know, it, it was, you know, I look at it at the point, it, sometimes it did feel like a sacrifice. But when I look back at what I’ve got now, I mean, that time with my children as children is so short.

[00:44:26] You know? And now that I’ve got ’em beyond that, I hope I’ve got ’em to adulthood where they’re not just my kids anymore, they’re my friends and we get to hang out and do stuff together. Right, 

[00:44:38] Jim Greenwood: right. Love that. Yeah. So 

[00:44:42] Ted McElroy: let’s talk about golf for a minute because I do love talking about golf. Okay. So, um, you, you really, did you, did your love of golf come as being a caddy?

[00:44:52] Is that where you really started loving 

[00:44:54] Jim Greenwood: golf? Yeah. My, it was, my dad was, he was 40 years old when I was born, [00:45:00] so once I got into my teenage years, he could take time off from work. He was a sales leader and I just had rich memories of getting to play with him once a week. Like, he’d take Wednesday afternoon off and we’d play golf and he got me into caddying and I, I just, I learned so much about life, cat.

[00:45:23] And just gained a, a tremendous appreciation for the game. And, you know, golf’s an activity where you can be as good as you wanna be. I also played basketball, and you can work really hard playing, you know, become the best basketball player you can, but if the other four or five guys on your team aren’t doing the same, you’re, you’re kind of limited.

[00:45:44] Whereas yeah, sport like golf or tennis, and I just found that to pour yourself into it and try to become, you know, reach your full potential anyway. But I just, yeah, it’s, it’s a wonderful, I’ve got a group of guys, actually a group of guys from [00:46:00] church from 35 years ago. Uh, we were in a life group together with our wives.

[00:46:06] A couple of them started moving away and I said, Hey, let’s do a golf trip every year. Well, I’m planning trip number 33 now. Nice. We’ve been to 35 states. We try to go to a different state every year. And there’s a couple years where we, we’ve knocked off two states with the same trip, but uh, this year we’re going to the eastern shore of Maryland, so we’ll get Maryland and Delaware knocked off.

[00:46:31] But it’s just the stories, the camaraderie, the fun we have, it’s just, there’s eight guys. It’s just, it’s kinda the Paul Bear group we call it. Yeah, 

[00:46:42] Ted McElroy: I, I understand why that is. Yeah. So for me, golf is one of those things. I’m, I’m a kind of a perpetual improver, I guess you’d say. Um, you know, and, and I’ll be the first one to say, I still stink at golf.

[00:46:56] I mean, I’ve been playing golf since I was 12 years old, and it’s [00:47:00] rare when I break a hundred, but I love playing. And, um, it, it’s, it, it’s just, and the funny part about it is my, my striking has gotten way better. I just can’t figure out why my scoring is getting any better either. Um, you know, as if I can just get it.

[00:47:15] I can. If I can just get it from the second shot to the green, I think I’m fine. I want something to go on the green I’m in, you know, in one or two putts. That’s not a problem. It’s just getting it there. That’s the problem. And uh, it, it’s, and it never fails. I’ll hit. So let’s say I’m, I’m playing a par five and let’s say that I, I double bogey.

[00:47:36] Okay. What typically happens is I have hit, um, four stunning shots and one shot that ruins the whole thing. You know, somewhere along the way it may have been, you know, the second shot or the third shot, but it’s really just toast for 

[00:47:53] Jim Greenwood: Exactly. 

[00:47:54] Ted McElroy: Yeah. Yeah. You know, so consistency is my biggest challenge. Um, you know, but [00:48:00] I’ve, I’ve, I do love it.

[00:48:01] I really, truly do. And I, so for, for me, Saturdays, most Saturdays now, uh, because I’m, we’re empty nesters, have been for the last, um, probably seven years and. For me Saturday morning, I’m, I’m up at, as early as I can get out there. I’ve got a push cart, I’ll walk 18 holes and just get a chance to sit by myself and think, and you know, push around and, and just enjoy myself.

[00:48:26] And then Sundays after church, there’s these same guys, they call it the $2 boys and the majority of ’em are at least 70. There’s a few of us that are, that are younger. Okay. But most of ’em are much older. And it’s not $2 anymore, it’s $10, unfortunately. But, uh, you know, it, it, it works out cuz we play for points and then they draw names out of a hat.

[00:48:49] So it truly is, I mean, it’s truly gambling. I mean, I hate to say it because I mean, you may have had a great round and still end up with nothing and uh, or you may have had the worst round in the world and you come out of there with 40 [00:49:00] bucks, you know. So, uh, the funny part about it is, I mean, you come out at the, I mean, I would definitely say that after all these years of playing, I think I’ve.

[00:49:08] I probably have broken even at worst. Okay. You know, and at best I may have made $5, you know, so it’s a, it’s, it’s a good group of guys, 

[00:49:16] Jim Greenwood: but ATM machine, huh? Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. There’s, there’s a funny story on that. There’s in a group of guys I’ve played with for many years, uh, one of them was new to golf and he really took it up hard, you know, just lessons, new clubs, everything.

[00:49:30] And he just dove into the sport. But he didn’t really know a lot of the nuances of golf, you know, like, like how, uh, uh, how bets work and, and, you know, some of the games you play on the golf course, right? Care how much money’s involved. But w almost without a doubt, he would for 16 holes, He’d be up 12 bucks or something, $15, and then somebody would press him on 17 and 18 and he ended up paying at the end of the day [00:50:00] and he said, I’m so tired of losing the 15 point touchdowns.

[00:50:04] I deny the press. Nice. It was just, it was funny hearing him. 

[00:50:10] Ted McElroy: Yeah. What’s, what’s one of the biggest lessons you’ve learned from golf? Biggest 

[00:50:16] Jim Greenwood: lessons I’ve learned from golf. I think just, you know, serving others i’ll, I’ll take it back literally to caddying, where as a 14, 15 year old, you’re sitting there and typically say a member comes with three guests and you’ve got two of his guests.

[00:50:35] So they’re probably not very good golfers and their bags probably have bad straps that are digging into your shoulders and you’re all over the golf course. And instead of four hours, it might be five and a half hours. And literally, Ted, I could just see this like it was yesterday, you’d come up off the 18th green, you know, and there’s a customary tip involved.

[00:50:58] Or your teddy [00:51:00] and these guys who don’t really know the nuances of golf or the etiquette, say Thanks a lot, Jim. You know, pat me on the shoulder and my shoulders are kind of bleeding. But I guess, you know, the lesson there is just serving other people. Uh, I think that was just drilled into me for those six years that I did that.

[00:51:20] And, uh, you know, whether it’s, you know, somebody who’s gonna give you a great tip or somebody who’s not gonna tip you at all, you have to deliver for people, you know, kind of. Exceed their expectations, 

[00:51:34] Ted McElroy: so, right. So you retire. Yeah. You retire from the business horse. Yeah. For a very short period. And then you, I mean, you’re on like so many boards, it’s scary how many boards you’re on and then you decide, wow, this organization RCA sounds amazing.

[00:51:53] Um, I think I’m What made you decide to go back after being retired? 

[00:51:58] Jim Greenwood: Well, it [00:52:00] was really brewing almost at, at the same time, uh, RCA was starting to formulate and the private equity firm that I knew that’s helped partner with these physicians, I said, Hey Jim, this thing could get really big really fast.

[00:52:18] And we would, we don’t want you to have to be the ceo, but put the team together, uh, which I loved doing. This is in 2020 and. Meeting these physicians, and as y’all know, most of the people listening to this podcast know how long it takes to become a retina specialist. They, they, uh, there’s a lot of school involved and I’ve just been so impressed with the quality of the individuals.

[00:52:49] And there’s one woman in particular who I met early on, who, I think she went to college when she was 14 or 15, and, you know, went to medical school when she was 18. [00:53:00] And she’s brilliant, but she’s the nicest person in all she could talk about were her patients. And another one of the first groups that became part of RCA was in Houston, and the leader of that group actually takes care of one of Dr.

[00:53:15] OSA’s parents and he’ll do anything. You know, they’re, yeah, yeah, they’re, they’re very bright. And I was expecting, People that are that bright. And having worked with physicians for many years now, maybe to be a little arrogant, you know, it would be a word to say, but there’s none of that. I’m just, they really care about their patients and make a difference for folks, and it’s just contagious.

[00:53:41] So it’s easy to be a part of it. So I was fortunate to be asked to put together the business team to partner with these physicians. And what’s really cool is these large retina groups around the country, they’ve all known each other. They, they trained together, they’re friends, they’ve, they’ve done [00:54:00] clinical trials together with the drug companies, they’ve looked at systems together.

[00:54:03] It’s very much like Vision Source in that regard, where they’ve learned from one another at arms length, Sacramento versus Houston versus Kansas City, Minnesota, Florida, wherever. When they started coming together, this in this manner, uh, they all said, well, if it’s good enough for Dave, it’s good enough for Joel, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:54:26] I want to talk to y’all. So the company got really big, really fast, and it’s really fun to be a part of it and to have that tie to optometry. We just had a medical leadership board meeting, uh, a couple weeks ago actually, where we had about 20 of the medical leaders or RCA from around the country come together quarterly.

[00:54:47] And on the agenda was an optometry panel where we had four, uh, influential optometrists from around the country come and the, the retina physicians wanted to, [00:55:00] basically, the first question was, what makes for a good relationship with your retina specialists that you work with? You know, what makes for a lousy relationship?

[00:55:08] We, they wanted to learn from these influential optometrists how they could do better. And, and now with some of the, the drug evolution where there’s a lot of patients that are inside an optometric practice with dry a, b and maybe with some GA that now there’s a drug that, you know, that didn’t exist three weeks ago.

[00:55:30] Right. Or a month ago. Right. So to have that relationship and leverage the, the relationships I had with Envision Source community is, is really cool to see, uh, trying to connect some of those dots. 

[00:55:44] Ted McElroy: Yeah. And those drug discoveries have changed the discussion that I’m now having with my guest in my practice that are at risk.

[00:55:52] Right. Um, you know, especially when we’re trying to be proactive and preventative and explain to them, look, we need to really do something about that. We need [00:56:00] to get you on some sort of triple carotenoid or something like that. Get you going. And, and if we start seeing even the inklings of these things, now we’ve got something we can do about it.

[00:56:06] Right. As opposed to Right. The old days of saying, well, you got macro degeneration, I’ll see in six months and we’ll see how much worse it got, you know? Right. And that’s kind of how it was. So, um, it, it’s exciting now to have that, and for me, I, I’ve become really. Passionate about macular degeneration, primarily because of my family history.

[00:56:26] My, my, my mother, my father’s mother, uh, who I never got to know. That’s why I refer to that instead of my grandmother. She died when my dad was 11. 

[00:56:35] Jim Greenwood: Yeah. All five of 

[00:56:37] Ted McElroy: her siblings had macular degeneration. Two were poster children. One, uh, called up my office from Atlanta we’re about 168 miles north south of Atlanta.

[00:56:47] And, um, called because she said, I know Ted can fix this. Mm. This is one of the poster children, people. Wow. And there’s, it’s, it’s really difficult telling one of your guests, this is, there’s nothing we can do. But to look at Aunt [00:57:00] Peggy and say, I, I’m sorry. You know, that’s a hard conversation. And uh, absolutely.

[00:57:07] You know, so that’s what I take into every discussion I’m having with somebody when. When I’ve, let’s say, screened somebody in their, their adapt DX didn’t come out like it should have. Right. And I’m saying, you know, hey, if we can jump in this now, we can hopefully prevent you from having the problems in the future, or at least string you down the road long enough till some kind of new discovery comes along.

[00:57:29] Or we can fix this. But if we do nothing, oh, I can promise you it’s gonna get worse. Right. You know, and, uh, that’s one of the best things too about what you guys do is having this gap that’s being filled by people who care about their guests as much as we do. And, you know, have that passion and want to know.

[00:57:48] I I really admire the fact that, you know, your, your colleagues are wanting to find out what it would take to make a great relationship. Because that’s really what it comes down to is where can we make this relationship work, right. Where this [00:58:00] is a true win-win for, for everybody including that patient, 

[00:58:04] Jim Greenwood: patient at the center.

[00:58:05] Absolutely. And it’s funny you say that Ted, our, the c this young c e o, his grandmother lost her vision to a m d. So 

[00:58:15] Ted McElroy: yeah, it’s just, it’s a horrible thing, you know? And, um, I’m just, it’s, it’s a very exciting time to be around. Uh, I care. It is, uh, I, it’s kind of funny, I, I’ve, for the beginning and all the times I’ve ever talked about on this podcast, I tell people, people I typically don’t talk about, uh, pathology and stuff like that.

[00:58:33] I’ll leave that to Chris cuz he is a lot smarter than I am. But I’m finally starting to get into something where, I mean, it’s not that I wasn’t smart, it’s just as something that I wasn’t quite as passionate about because it didn’t hit my family, you know? Yeah. Once you get something that gets to hits your family, you get real passionate about it real fast.

[00:58:47] Absolutely. You know? Yeah, absolutely. So, as we sort of wind down, okay. What, what would you say would be something you wanted to make sure that our audience heard from Jim [00:59:00] Greenwood before we quit, we finished up. 

[00:59:02] Jim Greenwood: I’d probably wanna message the importance of really. Trying to optimize the gifts you’ve been given.

[00:59:10] It would be, and, you know, whatever those gifts are, whether it’s leadership, whether it’s intellect, you know, whether it’s, you name it. But try to take, take steps typically around coaching and mentors to, to help you realize what those gifts are and optimize them and, uh, you know, make full advantage of what you’ve been given.

[00:59:40] And at the same time, I, I love the book Go Giver with everyone you meet. Try to exceed the expectations of, of what they would anticipate through a relationship with you, whether it’s outside of business or inside business, an employer, [01:00:00] an employee. Uh, just try to always be your best and. Uh, take action to, to become your best.

[01:00:10] But you know, first and foremost, you know, given the opportunity here, Ted, is most important decision you’ll ever make is who’s your master? Yeah. Uh, your master, your mate, and your mission. And if somebody, uh, ever wanted to chat about that, I’d be more than happy to chat with why that’s so important to me.

[01:00:31] Ted McElroy: Well, you bring up a good thing. How, uh, how would you like for people to connect with you if they would like to reach out and talk with you? Jim, cell 

[01:00:36] Jim Greenwood: phone, nine seven two four eight nine four nine nine seven nine seven. There’s a 4 8 4 9 97. 

[01:00:48] Ted McElroy: There’s a brave man right there giving his cell phone out to a whole bunch of people, 

[01:00:52] Jim Greenwood: but I tell you, they’re listening to you to, they’re good people.

[01:00:55] So I’d be, well, I’d be, uh, privileged to chat with anybody who wants to reach [01:01:00] out. 

[01:01:00] Ted McElroy: Well, I’ll also make sure I put your email address in there, so maybe you’ll get that instead sometimes, but I’ll tell you, if you call him, he’ll answer. That’s the thing, you know, and, uh, I mean it. Yeah. And, and Jim, I can’t thank you enough for doing this and spending some time with me.

[01:01:13] Uh, for those of you who haven’t figured this out yet, you just got a masterclass on mentorship and leadership and how to develop relationships and, uh, where your, where your bread’s definitely buttered, which is not down here. It’s up in heaven. Uh, Jim, thanks for being, 

[01:01:27] Jim Greenwood: spend some time with us for the opportunity, Ted.

[01:01:29] Great being with you, my friend, and thank you brother. Take care. Have a good night.

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